Received: from mail-qg0-f60.google.com ([209.85.192.60]:33579) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZN6yM-0007dn-BQ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:15:47 -0700 Received: by qgeh16 with SMTP id h16sf12577837qge.0 for ; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=wJcB/eXLvFaUYl2cwliiGeR9qJlbr7P7P/F4V2a7bbs=; b=TLdm61/9TYobHYEuIvl3yjd8XxEl8vJnPQaHOrL3K2CbGJ+x27jNCORIaw1Y0b9XX0 6JV4wr3T1TmfH9lZMpjH/Jiv3aAVq67a6LcM1p17cEHiRVJeL/09vp2E3P0JTOh0h/UZ 9oQzziOH+r584KrM4qK//92n+6P3K5viYC4acZmYllZEcd+DBpyYE17ENvZ7oAZm8mDP uzY/YLqHwCVFH7ktaVS9Q4j/PYTIG7WeaosiLHnAOgZMluezIZXTCqhd/GtkAqBGfVyu WOhQX4sBqXmIfzp1D7e1XPLVTKLRwX11ua2UKDpo3I4DYwAkrDp62shEayEwtqJZuKhE BFew== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=wJcB/eXLvFaUYl2cwliiGeR9qJlbr7P7P/F4V2a7bbs=; b=nTqwnogc4LmAGoJUiLOCa7Ae7+agls8yxqOfF65rBE1XqiP3lW7B6RLaxUNGENobVk Mawct/7z2gjBEp2HIk6/jgqNdh+zp2+hLxf8RqVeNqyofCQH7cTGtP+fyFHZ+oyohnJd OTkNw973wQSr0jWC75HM+pTtTVojrnVMvgvD/oKGeR0J8/6AVwWu88cCrQo94P4JSMlv grOZepfXsGxH+UhT+FFIdYs4JGBTiz7Q4LYawaZ+F7LllxNdpF491NL2XQtXj0ba9i3k 9uwkBmvDVzpCKYadKTSIJ+NBqLQKC2s+L1ennOm0hU325bpLXlZksyQu0Mt4KwDks7+/ EUyQ== X-Received: by 10.140.81.149 with SMTP id f21mr138842qgd.8.1438812935781; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.38.169 with SMTP id t38ls1006519qgt.49.gmail; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.91.82 with SMTP id y76mr2387qgd.39.1438812935115; Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 15:15:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Martin Felipe Perez-Guevara To: lojban Cc: webmaster@kyleroucis.com Message-Id: <77215e87-bcdb-4818-8e77-d5710e1e2dd1@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3BFCA946-8A58-446D-8C14-1D49A025DDE5@kyleroucis.com> References: <3BFCA946-8A58-446D-8C14-1D49A025DDE5@kyleroucis.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] lojban for research on human-machine interfaces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_298_443476665.1438812934467" X-Original-Sender: mperezguevara@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_298_443476665.1438812934467 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_299_476041160.1438812934467" ------=_Part_299_476041160.1438812934467 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First of all, Wei and Kyle thank you for your answers. @Kyle I see the point about the grammar being unambiguous due to its=20 parsing and the direct mapping between phonemes and graphemes also taking= =20 pronunciation ambiguity out. Nonetheless I refer to other aspects of the=20 language or even the grammar itself in the sense of knowing how the=20 different components were decided to stay like that. For example any sounds= =20 could have been selected to be the phonemes arbitrarily, before creating a= =20 nonambigous mapping to graphemes, or this phonemes could have been selected= =20 to maximize their auditory discrimination based on some sound variable or= =20 something like that. Also for example the grammar rules themselves must=20 have a history due to loglan, but I just wondered if you could point me to= =20 some easy guide on the evolution of the grammatical rules selected. In general I mean some material or maybe a person to contact that could=20 introduce me to the path of creation of the language and not just to its=20 final state. It would be really nice if we could discuss this by voice/chat, thank you= =20 again for your guidance. On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 2:45:02 AM UTC+2, Kyle Roucis wrote: > > Hello Martin, > > I think I can speak for many of us in saying =E2=80=9CWelcome!=E2=80=9D (= or { coi }). Has=20 > anyone other than Wei and myself responded to your inquiry? If not, I hav= e=20 > a small amount of information that may help. > > *1) For the grammar and other aspects of the language like the phonetics,= =20 > the ortography and vocabulary. Are there any informal records, simulation= s=20 > or experiments leading to settling down on the particular aspects of the= =20 > language? For example selecting the set of phonemes could be based on som= e=20 > kind of optimization.* > > Most, if not all, of these things are already codified in The Complete=20 > Lojban Language (also known as the= =20 > Reference Grammar or CLL). This set of documents includes orthography,=20 > pronunciation, bridi structure, word classes, and so much more.=20 > Additionally, jbovlaste is a dictionary=20 > system used by the community to find, categorize, and occasionally define= =20 > words. > > I=E2=80=99m not certain what kind of records, simulations, or experiments= you=20 > would be looking for. The CLL is largely unambiguous about its=20 > pronunciation, orthography, and grammar (though some changes are in the= =20 > works). On the other hand, there is a growing corpus of lojban creations,= =20 > conversations, and proposals that help to demonstrate the practical=20 > applications of the CLL. Virtually everything you could want related to= =20 > lojban can be found at the Lojban Mediawiki=20 > . > > *2) What is the estimate of people in the community and their fluency. Do= =20 > you think people in the community would be interested in participating in= =20 > cognitive experiments designed for Lojban? * > *Some experiments might be paid and all results would be public and I hop= e=20 > leading to peer reviewed publication.* > > Sadly, I am not well-integrated into the lojban community and have been= =20 > relatively inactive in the last few months. I would wager a guess that th= e=20 > total number of people who have or actively do engage in lojban study is= =20 > between 200-300, though admittedly that seems a little high. Of that grou= p,=20 > I only know of a small handful (3-4) that the community at large might be= =20 > comfortable calling =E2=80=98fluent=E2=80=99. Again, this is just my pers= pective; and I=20 > frankly know nothing, John Snow. > > I would be very excited to help in any way I can. I have been fumbling=20 > with building parsers, speech-to-text and text-to-speech synthesizers, an= d=20 > simple fiction of my own for a while now. If there is any way I can help= =20 > further, please feel free to ask! > > mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la keidji > > Kyle Roucis > www.kyleroucis.com > ky...@kyleroucis.com > 719-651-8007 > > On Aug 4, 2015, at 07:33, Martin Felipe Perez-Guevara > wrote: > > Hi all. > > I am currently a PHD student in cognitive and computational neuroscience.= =20 > I was looking for some conlang as a starting base to explore some ideas t= o=20 > improve human information processing assisted by computers (lets simplify= =20 > and say improve reading). I particularly needed it as a start point to be= =20 > easily to parse so I got very interested by Lojban unambigous grammar and= =20 > decided to use it for my experiments.=20 > > So I have two main questions for the community: > > 1) For the grammar and other aspects of the language like the phonetics,= =20 > the ortography and vocabulary. Are there any informal records, simulation= s=20 > or experiments leading to settling down on the particular aspects of the= =20 > language? For example selecting the set of phonemes could be based on som= e=20 > kind of optimization. > > 2) What is the estimate of people in the community and their fluency. Do= =20 > you think people in the community would be interested in participating in= =20 > cognitive experiments designed for Lojban?=20 > Some experiments might be paid and all results would be public and I hope= =20 > leading to peer reviewed publication. > > I think research on Lojban might also be great advertisement for the=20 > language and the community. I particularly started learning it myself, I= =20 > find it fascinating. > > Thank you for taking the time to read this and for your future answers. > > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= =20 > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_299_476041160.1438812934467 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First of all, Wei and Kyle thank you for your answers.
@Kyle I see the point about the grammar being unambiguous d= ue to its parsing and the direct mapping between phonemes and graphemes als= o taking pronunciation ambiguity out. Nonetheless I refer to other aspects = of the language or even the grammar itself in the sense of knowing how the = different components were decided to stay like that. For example any sounds= could have been selected to be the phonemes arbitrarily, before creating a= nonambigous mapping to graphemes, or this phonemes could have been selecte= d to maximize their auditory discrimination based on some sound variable or= something like that. Also for example the grammar rules themselves must ha= ve a history due to loglan, but I just wondered if you could point me to so= me easy guide on the evolution of the grammatical rules selected.

In general I mean some material or maybe a person to contac= t that could introduce me to the path of creation of the language and not j= ust to its final state.

It would be really nice if= we could discuss this by voice/chat, thank you again for your guidance.
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 2:45:02 AM UTC+2, Kyle Roucis wrote:
Hello Martin,

I think I can speak for many of us in = saying =E2=80=9CWelcome!=E2=80=9D (or { coi }). Has anyone other than Wei a= nd myself responded to your inquiry? If not, I have a small amount of infor= mation that may help.

1) For the grammar and ot= her aspects of the language like the phonetics, the ortography and vocabula= ry. Are there any informal records, simulations or experiments leading to s= ettling down on the particular aspects of the language? For example selecti= ng the set of phonemes could be based on some kind of optimization.
=

Most, if not all, of these things are already codified = in=C2=A0The Complete Lojban Language=C2=A0(also known= as the Reference Grammar or CLL). This set of documents includes orthograp= hy, pronunciation, bridi structure, word classes, and so much more. Additio= nally,=C2=A0jbovlas= te=C2=A0is a dictionary system used by the community to find, categoriz= e, and occasionally define words.

I=E2=80=99m not = certain what kind of records, simulations, or experiments you would be look= ing for. The CLL is largely unambiguous about its pronunciation, orthograph= y, and grammar (though some changes are in the works). On the other hand, t= here is a growing corpus of lojban creations, conversations, and proposals = that help to demonstrate the practical applications of the CLL. Virtually e= verything you could want related to lojban can be found at the=C2=A0Lo= jban Mediawiki.

2) What is the estimat= e of people in the community and their fluency. Do you think people in the = community would be interested in participating in cognitive experiments des= igned for Lojban?=C2=A0
Some experiments might be paid and= all results would be public and I hope leading to peer reviewed publicatio= n.

Sadly, I am not well-integrated into the lojban c= ommunity and have been relatively inactive in the last few months. I would = wager a guess that the total number of people who have or actively do engag= e in lojban study is between 200-300, though admittedly that seems a little= high. Of that group, I only know of a small handful (3-4) that the communi= ty at large might be comfortable calling =E2=80=98fluent=E2=80=99. Again, t= his is just my perspective; and I frankly know nothing, John Snow.

I would be very excited to help in any way I can. I have b= een fumbling with building parsers, speech-to-text and text-to-speech synth= esizers, and simple fiction of my own for a while now. If there is any way = I can help further, please feel free to ask!

mu=E2= =80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la keidji

Kyle Roucis
<= a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"nKlA-2GHE= gAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';retu= rn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">ky...@= kyleroucis.com
719-651-8007

On Aug 4, 2015, at 07:33, Martin Fe= lipe Perez-Guevara <mperez...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all.

I am currently a PHD student in cogniti= ve and computational neuroscience. I was looking for some conlang as a star= ting base to explore some ideas to improve human information processing ass= isted by computers (lets simplify and say improve reading). I particularly = needed it as a start point to be easily to parse so I got very interested b= y Lojban unambigous grammar and decided to use it for my experiments.=C2=A0=

So I have two main questions for the community:

1) For the grammar and other aspects of the languag= e like the phonetics, the ortography and vocabulary. Are there any informal= records, simulations or experiments leading to settling down on the partic= ular aspects of the language? For example selecting the set of phonemes cou= ld be based on some kind of optimization.

2) What = is the estimate of people in the community and their fluency. Do you think = people in the community would be interested in participating in cognitive e= xperiments designed for Lojban?=C2=A0
Some experiments might be p= aid and all results would be public and I hope leading to peer reviewed pub= lication.

I think research on Lojban might also be= great advertisement for the language and the community. I particularly sta= rted learning it myself, I find it fascinating.

Th= ank you for taking the time to read this and for your future answers.
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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