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[2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jv9si46842wid.0.2015.08.06.00.05.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Aug 2015 00:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b; Received: by mail-wi0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id gj17so9910489wic.1 for ; Thu, 06 Aug 2015 00:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.61.10 with SMTP id l10mr338435wjr.138.1438844723968; Thu, 06 Aug 2015 00:05:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.138 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Aug 2015 00:04:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <77215e87-bcdb-4818-8e77-d5710e1e2dd1@googlegroups.com> References: <3BFCA946-8A58-446D-8C14-1D49A025DDE5@kyleroucis.com> <77215e87-bcdb-4818-8e77-d5710e1e2dd1@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 10:04:44 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] lojban for research on human-machine interfaces To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba97e04a8c2b7051c9f2424 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7ba97e04a8c2b7051c9f2424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-08-06 1:15 GMT+03:00 Martin Felipe Perez-Guevara < mperezguevara@gmail.com>: > First of all, Wei and Kyle thank you for your answers. > > @Kyle I see the point about the grammar being unambiguous due to its > parsing and the direct mapping between phonemes and graphemes also taking > pronunciation ambiguity out. Nonetheless I refer to other aspects of the > language or even the grammar itself in the sense of knowing how the > different components were decided to stay like that. For example any soun= ds > could have been selected to be the phonemes arbitrarily, before creating = a > nonambigous mapping to graphemes, or this phonemes could have been select= ed > to maximize their auditory discrimination based on some sound variable or > something like that. Also for example the grammar rules themselves must > have a history due to loglan, but I just wondered if you could point me t= o > some easy guide on the evolution of the grammatical rules selected. > The first version of Loglan was published in Scientific American: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Scientific_American_article So it's supposed that phonemic inventory reflects most common phonemes in the world. I don't think that the current inventory of Lojban matters much for existing speakers. For new speakers you just use such tools as la cirkotci trying to imitate how it is uttered. No phonemic inventory can be satisfactory for everyone. Two more links: a. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD1D= whuU/edit#heading=3Dh.dqp8c7hl3yvp b. https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind1505A&L=3Dconlang&P= =3D19780 As for grammar most notable aspects of it compared to e.g. English: 1. A very rich vocabularly. People usually stick to the set of words and constructs used in their native language(s). They don't need or don't want to use anything else (unless they start learning Lojban). One of the recent and still standing Whorfian (or pseudo-Whorfian depending on your choice) case is that {co'i} particle marks what is called in linguistics "aorist" or "perfective aspect". English mostly lacks a separate word or affix for it mixing it with past tense, perfect tense but never separating it from similar aspects. Russian and chinese do have more clear tools to separate them but speakers of those languages simply use them without realizing what they really mean. So the only way for an English speaker to understand this concept is from usage by other Lojbanists. If you ask them to use {co'i} more then passively you will understand this particle. Lengthy academic explanations might not help here (just as children don't learn their first language(s) from books but from usage). 2. Dealing with raising and metonymy. In English we can say "Chomsky and Plato are here in this room, on the same shelf" whereas in Lojban you would probably want to use additional markers to separate Plato as a human and Plato as a book with his works. 3. Superficially visible in grammar "Principle of least effort ". Not that some usable language violates this principle but simply isolating grammar of Lojban additionally allows dropping particles that are unremovable in English. Like {lo mlatu} can means "a cat, the cat, cats, the cats" because Lojban doesn't force you to add definite/indefinite articles or grammatical number= . However, this principle of least effort in general doesn't go further into having semantically ambiguous words. So Lojban lacks a word that both means "The accordion box is too small" and "It will rain next Wednesday". This is not a strict rule, but simply a trend. A generic verb {co'e} can denote any relation depending on context. > In general I mean some material or maybe a person to contact that could > introduce me to the path of creation of the language and not just to its > final state. > > It would be really nice if we could discuss this by voice/chat, thank you > again for your guidance. > There is a text chat http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/irci/ It is active in certain hours (we all live in different timezones across the globe so it is inactive every day in certain hours). As for voice chats we usually do them either via Mumble or Skype. Announcements are usually published in this thread: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/y0YvUItExQs/discussion Or just watch this mailing list for new messages. > > > On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 2:45:02 AM UTC+2, Kyle Roucis wrote: >> >> Hello Martin, >> >> I think I can speak for many of us in saying =E2=80=9CWelcome!=E2=80=9D = (or { coi }). Has >> anyone other than Wei and myself responded to your inquiry? If not, I ha= ve >> a small amount of information that may help. >> >> *1) For the grammar and other aspects of the language like the phonetics= , >> the ortography and vocabulary. Are there any informal records, simulatio= ns >> or experiments leading to settling down on the particular aspects of the >> language? For example selecting the set of phonemes could be based on so= me >> kind of optimization.* >> >> Most, if not all, of these things are already codified in The Complete >> Lojban Language (also known as >> the Reference Grammar or CLL). This set of documents includes orthograph= y, >> pronunciation, bridi structure, word classes, and so much more. >> Additionally, jbovlaste is a dictionary >> system used by the community to find, categorize, and occasionally defin= e >> words. >> >> I=E2=80=99m not certain what kind of records, simulations, or experiment= s you >> would be looking for. The CLL is largely unambiguous about its >> pronunciation, orthography, and grammar (though some changes are in the >> works). On the other hand, there is a growing corpus of lojban creations= , >> conversations, and proposals that help to demonstrate the practical >> applications of the CLL. Virtually everything you could want related to >> lojban can be found at the Lojban Mediawiki >> . >> >> *2) What is the estimate of people in the community and their fluency. D= o >> you think people in the community would be interested in participating i= n >> cognitive experiments designed for Lojban? * >> *Some experiments might be paid and all results would be public and I >> hope leading to peer reviewed publication.* >> >> Sadly, I am not well-integrated into the lojban community and have been >> relatively inactive in the last few months. I would wager a guess that t= he >> total number of people who have or actively do engage in lojban study is >> between 200-300, though admittedly that seems a little high. Of that gro= up, >> I only know of a small handful (3-4) that the community at large might b= e >> comfortable calling =E2=80=98fluent=E2=80=99. Again, this is just my per= spective; and I >> frankly know nothing, John Snow. >> >> I would be very excited to help in any way I can. I have been fumbling >> with building parsers, speech-to-text and text-to-speech synthesizers, a= nd >> simple fiction of my own for a while now. If there is any way I can help >> further, please feel free to ask! >> >> mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la keidji >> >> Kyle Roucis >> www.kyleroucis.com >> ky...@kyleroucis.com >> 719-651-8007 >> >> On Aug 4, 2015, at 07:33, Martin Felipe Perez-Guevara < >> mperez...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> I am currently a PHD student in cognitive and computational neuroscience= . >> I was looking for some conlang as a starting base to explore some ideas = to >> improve human information processing assisted by computers (lets simplif= y >> and say improve reading). I particularly needed it as a start point to b= e >> easily to parse so I got very interested by Lojban unambigous grammar an= d >> decided to use it for my experiments. >> >> So I have two main questions for the community: >> >> 1) For the grammar and other aspects of the language like the phonetics, >> the ortography and vocabulary. Are there any informal records, simulatio= ns >> or experiments leading to settling down on the particular aspects of the >> language? For example selecting the set of phonemes could be based on so= me >> kind of optimization. >> >> 2) What is the estimate of people in the community and their fluency. Do >> you think people in the community would be interested in participating i= n >> cognitive experiments designed for Lojban? >> Some experiments might be paid and all results would be public and I hop= e >> leading to peer reviewed publication. >> >> I think research on Lojban might also be great advertisement for the >> language and the community. I particularly started learning it myself, I >> find it fascinating. >> >> Thank you for taking the time to read this and for your future answers. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7ba97e04a8c2b7051c9f2424 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-08-06 1:15 GMT+03:00 Martin Felipe Perez-Guevara <mperezgue= vara@gmail.com>:
First of all, Wei and Kyle thank you for your answers.

@Kyle I see the point about the grammar being unambiguous due to it= s parsing and the direct mapping between phonemes and graphemes also taking= pronunciation ambiguity out. Nonetheless I refer to other aspects of the l= anguage or even the grammar itself in the sense of knowing how the differen= t components were decided to stay like that. For example any sounds could h= ave been selected to be the phonemes arbitrarily, before creating a nonambi= gous mapping to graphemes, or this phonemes could have been selected to max= imize their auditory discrimination based on some sound variable or somethi= ng like that. Also for example the grammar rules themselves must have a his= tory due to loglan, but I just wondered if you could point me to some easy = guide on the evolution of the grammatical rules selected.

The first version of Loglan was published in Sci= entific American: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Scientific_American_article
<= div>
So it's supposed that phonemic inventory reflects mo= st common phonemes in the world.

I don't think= that the current inventory of Lojban matters much for existing speakers. F= or new speakers you just use such tools as la cirkotci=C2=A0trying to imitate = how it is uttered.

No phonemic inventory can be sa= tisfactory for everyone. Two more links:
As for grammar most notable aspects of it compared to e.= g. English:

1. A very rich vocabularly. People usu= ally stick to the set of words and constructs used in their native language= (s). They don't need or don't want to use anything else (unless the= y start learning Lojban).
One of the recent and still standing Wh= orfian (or pseudo-Whorfian depending on your choice) case is that {co'i= } particle marks what is called in linguistics "aorist" or "= perfective aspect". English mostly lacks a separate word or affix for = it mixing it with past tense, perfect tense but never separating it from si= milar aspects. Russian and chinese do have more clear tools to separate the= m but speakers of those languages simply use them without realizing what th= ey really mean. So the only way for an English speaker to understand this c= oncept is from usage by other Lojbanists. If you ask them to use {co'i}= more then passively you will understand this particle. Lengthy academic ex= planations might not help here (just as children don't learn their firs= t language(s) from books but from usage).

2. Deali= ng with raising and metonymy. In English we can say "Chomsky and Plato= are here in this room, on the same shelf" whereas in Lojban you would= probably want to use additional markers to separate Plato as a human and P= lato as a book with his works.

3. Superficially vi= sible in grammar "Principle of least effort". Not that some usable lang= uage violates this principle but simply isolating grammar of Lojban additio= nally allows dropping particles that are unremovable in English. Like
=
{lo mlatu} can means "a cat, the cat, cats, the cats" becaus= e Lojban doesn't force you to add definite/indefinite articles or gramm= atical number.
However, this principle of least effort in general= doesn't go further into having semantically ambiguous words.
So Lojban lacks a word that both means=C2=A0"The accordion box is too= small" and "It will rain next Wednesday".
This is= not a strict rule, but simply a trend. A generic verb {co'e} can denot= e any relation depending on context.



In general= I mean some material or maybe a person to contact that could introduce me = to the path of creation of the language and not just to its final state.

It would be really nice if we could discuss this by = voice/chat, thank you again for your guidance.

There is a text chat http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/irci/ I= t is active in certain hours (we all live in different timezones across the= globe so it is inactive every day in certain hours). As for voice chats we= usually do them either via Mumble or Skype. Announcements are usually publ= ished in this thread:=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/y0YvUI= tExQs/discussion

Or just watch this mailing li= st for new messages.
<= div>

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 2:45:02 AM UTC= +2, Kyle Roucis wrote:
Hello Martin,

=
I think I can speak for many of us in saying =E2=80=9CWelcome!=E2=80= =9D (or { coi }). Has anyone other than Wei and myself responded to your in= quiry? If not, I have a small amount of information that may help.

1) For the grammar and other as= pects of the language like the phonetics, the ortography and vocabulary. Ar= e there any informal records, simulations or experiments leading to settlin= g down on the particular aspects of the language? For example selecting the= set of phonemes could be based on some kind of optimization.
<= br>
Most, if not all, of these things are already codified in=C2= =A0The Complete Lojban Language=C2=A0(also known as the Refere= nce Grammar or CLL). This set of documents includes orthography, pronunciat= ion, bridi structure, word classes, and so much more. Additionally,=C2=A0jb= ovlaste=C2=A0is a dictionary system used by the community to find, cate= gorize, and occasionally define words.

I=E2=80=99m= not certain what kind of records, simulations, or experiments you would be= looking for. The CLL is largely unambiguous about its pronunciation, ortho= graphy, and grammar (though some changes are in the works). On the other ha= nd, there is a growing corpus of lojban creations, conversations, and propo= sals that help to demonstrate the practical applications of the CLL. Virtua= lly everything you could want related to lojban can be found at the=C2=A0Lojban Mediawiki.

2) What is the e= stimate of people in the community and their fluency. Do you think people i= n the community would be interested in participating in cognitive experimen= ts designed for Lojban?=C2=A0
Some experiments might be pa= id and all results would be public and I hope leading to peer reviewed publ= ication.

Sadly, I am not well-integrated = into the lojban community and have been relatively inactive in the last few= months. I would wager a guess that the total number of people who have or = actively do engage in lojban study is between 200-300, though admittedly th= at seems a little high. Of that group, I only know of a small handful (3-4)= that the community at large might be comfortable calling =E2=80=98fluent= =E2=80=99. Again, this is just my perspective; and I frankly know nothing, = John Snow.

I would be very excited to help in any = way I can. I have been fumbling with building parsers, speech-to-text and t= ext-to-speech synthesizers, and simple fiction of my own for a while now. I= f there is any way I can help further, please feel free to ask!
<= br>
mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la keidji

Kyle Roucis=
719-651-8007

On Aug 4, 2015, at= 07:33, Martin Felipe Perez-Guevara <mperez...@gmail= .com> wrote:

= Hi all.

I am currently a PHD student in cognitive and co= mputational neuroscience. I was looking for some conlang as a starting base= to explore some ideas to improve human information processing assisted by = computers (lets simplify and say improve reading). I particularly needed it= as a start point to be easily to parse so I got very interested by Lojban = unambigous grammar and decided to use it for my experiments.=C2=A0

So I have two main questions for the community:
=
1) For the grammar and other aspects of the language like th= e phonetics, the ortography and vocabulary. Are there any informal records,= simulations or experiments leading to settling down on the particular aspe= cts of the language? For example selecting the set of phonemes could be bas= ed on some kind of optimization.

2) What is the es= timate of people in the community and their fluency. Do you think people in= the community would be interested in participating in cognitive experiment= s designed for Lojban?=C2=A0
Some experiments might be paid and a= ll results would be public and I hope leading to peer reviewed publication.=

I think research on Lojban might also be great ad= vertisement for the language and the community. I particularly started lear= ning it myself, I find it fascinating.

Thank you f= or taking the time to read this and for your future answers.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7ba97e04a8c2b7051c9f2424--