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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 01:50:28 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Frankfurt
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When did it become illegal to have final consonant clusters in names?

stevo

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:32 PM, selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la .piier. cu cusku di'e
>
>> How would you Lojbanize "Frankfurt"? To me the best option seems to be
>> ".frankyfuryt."
>>
>
> There are two types of cmevla in Lojban: jbocme, which consist only of
> lojbanic syllables, and zifcme, which are just a string of phonemes that
> don't violate any phonotactic constraints (e.g. voicing rules, invalid
> clusters etc) but ignore syllabic structure.
>
> {.frankfurt.} is a valid zifcme, but not a jbocme, because it contains
> syllables whose coda contains more than one consonant.
>
> Since zifcme contain phoneme strings that are not found in any other word=
s
> (brivla or cmavo), they could be considered non-lojbanic, or less lojbani=
c
> than jbocme.
>
> If a jbocme is the goal, then complex names such as "Frankfurt" need to b=
e
> adjusted. Logically speaking there are two ways this can be done:
>
> 1) Add vowels wherever necessary to break up non-lojbanic consonant
> clusters into lojbanic syllables.
> 2) Remove consonants from the non-lojbanic consonant clusters.
>
> {.frankyfuryt.} follows method 1.
>
> A possible result of method 2 might be {.franfur.} or {.franfut.}.
>
> How would a native Lojban speaker do it? We don't know, but I think it's
> likely that they would rather go for jbocme (if they have only been expos=
ed
> to brivla and cmavo, and jbocme), and that they would simplify clusters
> according to some acquired intuition.
>
> I can't say what's best, but the above are some of the thoughts I've
> recently had concerning the lojbanization of names.
>
> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o
>
> ---
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">When did it become illegal to have final consonant clusters =
in names?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:cour=
ier new,monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:courier new,monospace">stevo</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 1:32 PM, selpahi <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">la .piier. cu cusk=
u di&#39;e<span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
How would you Lojbanize &quot;Frankfurt&quot;? To me the best option seems =
to be<br>
&quot;.frankyfuryt.&quot;<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
There are two types of cmevla in Lojban: jbocme, which consist only of lojb=
anic syllables, and zifcme, which are just a string of phonemes that don=
9;t violate any phonotactic constraints (e.g. voicing rules, invalid cluste=
rs etc) but ignore syllabic structure.<br>
<br>
{.frankfurt.} is a valid zifcme, but not a jbocme, because it contains syll=
ables whose coda contains more than one consonant.<br>
<br>
Since zifcme contain phoneme strings that are not found in any other words =
(brivla or cmavo), they could be considered non-lojbanic, or less lojbanic =
than jbocme.<br>
<br>
If a jbocme is the goal, then complex names such as &quot;Frankfurt&quot; n=
eed to be adjusted. Logically speaking there are two ways this can be done:=
<br>
<br>
1) Add vowels wherever necessary to break up non-lojbanic consonant cluster=
s into lojbanic syllables.<br>
2) Remove consonants from the non-lojbanic consonant clusters.<br>
<br>
{.frankyfuryt.} follows method 1.<br>
<br>
A possible result of method 2 might be {.franfur.} or {.franfut.}.<br>
<br>
How would a native Lojban speaker do it? We don&#39;t know, but I think it&=
#39;s likely that they would rather go for jbocme (if they have only been e=
xposed to brivla and cmavo, and jbocme), and that they would simplify clust=
ers according to some acquired intuition.<br>
<br>
I can&#39;t say what&#39;s best, but the above are some of the thoughts I&#=
39;ve recently had concerning the lojbanization of names.<br>
<br>
mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i mu&#39;o<br>
<br>
---<br>
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r>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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