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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:58:51 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Marking sentence completion | ka sinxa lo du'u lo jufra
 cu mulno
From: Robert Slaughter <robert.s.slaughter@gmail.com>
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There is already at least one cmavo for completion:
vau =E2=80=93 end simple bridi


----
Bob Slaughter
http://www.facebook.com/robert.s.slaughter
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled
by evil men." -- Plato
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing." -- Albert Einstein
"Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part
of the good." -- Pope Leo XIII, encyclical 'On Christians as Citizens'

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:

> coi ro do
>
> *[English]*
>
> There's something that worries me a little with sentences boundaries in
> Lojban.
>
> One of the features of Lojban's design is that what is usually carried by
> prosody (yes-no questions, subordinates and sentences ends, etc.) is alwa=
ys
> encoded as function words. However, apart from {mu'o do'u} or adding a
> final {.i}, there seem to be no way to explicitly indicate that a sentenc=
e
> is complete and that the speaker is done with it, so the listener doesn't
> have to wait indefinitely.
>
> If the listener has to rely on the duration of the pause after the
> sentence, it would be similar to relying on prosody for knowing whether a
> sentence is complete, wouldn't it?
>
> Furthermore, a {mu'o} without {do'u} or a sumti complement doesn't make i=
t
> clear that the speaker won't add {mu'o}'s argument later on, so you would
> have to say {mu'o do} or {mu'o do'u} to mark unambiguously explicitly tha=
t
> you have no more to say.
>
> A final trailing {.i} seems like the cheapest solution; but although it
> does mark explicitly that the previous sentence is complete, it may seem
> like the speaker is about to add a new sentence right after.
>
> Maybe a UI version of {mu'o} (just like {.i'o} is the UI version of
> {ki'e}) would be handier.
>
> With textual communication media such as IRC, the end of a message is
> pretty clearly marked in the interface (when a message is sent, it is
> deemed complete); however, in spoken speech, things are more problematic,
> if we absolutely want Lojban not to use any prosody.
>
> Any thought?
>
>
> *[jbobau]*
>
> da pe lo jbobau jufra korbi cu milxe co nabmi mi
>
> .i pa lo jbobau steci cu ka lo poi'i lo rarbau zo'u na'o pilno lo za'e
> prosodi to mu'a lo bacru tonga toi tu'a ke'a kei noi lo jezyje'u preti .e
> lo sinxa be lo jufra ja jufpau korbi be'o to famyma'o mu'a toi cu mupli c=
u
> jai te pilno bi'ai ku lo cmavo .e nai lo prosodi .i je ku'i no na nu jmin=
a
> lu mu'o do'u li'u .a zo .i lo se cusku fanmo cu simlu lo ka banzu lo nu l=
o
> te cusku gau sanji lo nu lo cusku cu mo'u cusku .a lo nu lo ro moi jufra =
cu
> mulno kei ja'e lo nu na denpa su'o nu da'i lo cusku cu jmina da lo ri
> prula'i jufra
>
> .i lo nu da'i lo te cusku cu nitcu su'o da poi ka denpa lo nu li rau temc=
i
> lo nu lo cusku co'u cusku ku'o lo ka co'a jinvi lo du'u ri ba'e mo'u cusk=
u
> cu da'i simsa lo nu lo te cusku cu nitcu lo ka lanli lo mu'a bacru tonga
> kei lo ka djuno lo du'u xu kau lo jufra cu mulno .i go'i =C4=ADe nai pei
>
> .i ji'a lo nu zo mu'o jai fanmo tu'a lo jufra gi'e na li'erla'i su'o da
> poi sumti vlapoi gi'a me zo do'u cu selja'e lo nu lo te cusku na ka'e bir=
ti
> lo du'u lo cusku na ba jmina fe mu'a lo sumti be zo mu'o .i ja'e bo da'i
> sarcu fa lo nu cusku su'o menre ja simsa be lu mu'o do li'u jo'u lu mu'o
> do'u li'u kei lo nu gau li'armi fa lo du'u mo'u cusku
>
> .i lo ka gau ce'u zo .i se lidne lo fanmo jufra cu simlu lo ka tolkargu
> traji danfu .i ge ja'a selja'e lo nu li'armi fa lo du'u lo ro moi jufra c=
u
> mulno gi ku'i ka'e rinka lo nu faumlu fa lo nu lo cusku be zo .i pu'o zi
> jmina su'o cnino jufra
>
> .i ka'e ku su'o da poi cnino gi'e smudu'i lu mu'o do'u li'u gi'e cmavo lo
> selma'o be zo =C5=ADi xoi panra be lo nu zo .i'o selma'o be zo =C5=ADi ke=
 smuni panra
> zo ki'e cu mapti zmadu sei na birti
>
> .i lo ka ciska kei ve cusku noi lo se .irci cu mupli zo'u lo du'u lo se
> cusku cu mulno cu li'armi ki'u tu'a lo sazycimde to lo nu lo se cusku cu
> tolcanci lo se .irci sazycimde cu na'o selja'e lo nu sruma lo du'u lo juf=
ra
> cu mulno toi .i lo ka bacru kei ve cusku zo'u ku'i nabmi zmadu va'o lo nu
> ma'a je'a djica lo du'u lo jbobau zo'u lo prosodi no da smuni
>
> ni'o .a'a do ma jinvi
>
>
> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o do'u
>
>
> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">There is already at least one cmavo for completion:<div><d=
iv>vau =E2=80=93 end simple bridi</div></div><div><br></div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<br></div><div>----</div><div>Bob Slaughter</div><div><a href=3D"http://www=
.facebook.com/robert.s.slaughter" target=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com=
/robert.s.slaughter</a>=C2=A0</div><div>&quot;The price good men pay for in=
difference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.&quot; -- Plato</di=
v><div>&quot;All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men=
 do nothing.&quot; -- Edmund Burke</div><div>&quot;The world is a dangerous=
 place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on =
and do nothing.&quot; -- Albert Einstein</div><div>&quot;Nothing emboldens =
the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good.&quot;=
 -- Pope Leo XIII, encyclical &#39;On Christians as Citizens&#39;</div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Ilmen <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    coi ro do<br>
    <br>
    <b>[English]</b><br>
    <br>
    There&#39;s something that worries me a little with sentences boundarie=
s
    in Lojban.<br>
    <br>
    One of the features of Lojban&#39;s design is that what is usually
    carried by prosody (yes-no questions, subordinates and sentences
    ends, etc.) is always encoded as function words. However, apart from
    {mu&#39;o do&#39;u} or adding a final {.i}, there seem to be no way to
    explicitly indicate that a sentence is complete and that the speaker
    is done with it, so the listener doesn&#39;t have to wait indefinitely.=
<br>
    <br>
    If the listener has to rely on the duration of the pause after the
    sentence, it would be similar to relying on prosody for knowing
    whether a sentence is complete, wouldn&#39;t it?<br>
    <br>
    Furthermore, a {mu&#39;o} without {do&#39;u} or a sumti complement does=
n&#39;t
    make it clear that the speaker won&#39;t add {mu&#39;o}&#39;s argument =
later on,
    so you would have to say {mu&#39;o do} or {mu&#39;o do&#39;u} to mark
    unambiguously explicitly that you have no more to say.<br>
    <br>
    A final trailing {.i} seems like the cheapest solution; but although
    it does mark explicitly that the previous sentence is complete, it
    may seem like the speaker is about to add a new sentence right
    after.<br>
    <br>
    Maybe a UI version of {mu&#39;o} (just like {.i&#39;o} is the UI versio=
n of
    {ki&#39;e}) would be handier.<br>
    <br>
    With textual communication media such as IRC, the end of a message
    is pretty clearly marked in the interface (when a message is sent,
    it is deemed complete); however, in spoken speech, things are more
    problematic, if we absolutely want Lojban not to use any prosody.<br>
    <br>
    Any thought?<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <b>[jbobau]</b><br>
    <br>
    da pe lo jbobau jufra korbi cu milxe co nabmi mi<br>
    <br>
    .i pa lo jbobau steci cu ka lo poi&#39;i lo rarbau zo&#39;u na&#39;o pi=
lno lo
    za&#39;e prosodi to mu&#39;a lo bacru tonga toi tu&#39;a ke&#39;a kei n=
oi lo
    jezyje&#39;u preti .e lo sinxa be lo jufra ja jufpau korbi be&#39;o to
    famyma&#39;o mu&#39;a toi cu mupli cu jai te pilno bi&#39;ai ku lo cmav=
o .e nai
    lo prosodi .i je ku&#39;i no na nu jmina lu mu&#39;o do&#39;u li&#39;u =
.a zo .i lo
    se cusku fanmo cu simlu lo ka banzu lo nu lo te cusku gau sanji lo
    nu lo cusku cu mo&#39;u cusku .a lo nu lo ro moi jufra cu mulno kei ja&=
#39;e
    lo nu na denpa su&#39;o nu da&#39;i lo cusku cu jmina da lo ri prula=
9;i jufra<br>
    <br>
    .i lo nu da&#39;i lo te cusku cu nitcu su&#39;o da poi ka denpa lo nu l=
i rau
    temci lo nu lo cusku co&#39;u cusku ku&#39;o lo ka co&#39;a jinvi lo du=
&#39;u ri
    ba&#39;e mo&#39;u cusku cu da&#39;i simsa lo nu lo te cusku cu nitcu lo=
 ka lanli
    lo mu&#39;a bacru tonga kei lo ka djuno lo du&#39;u xu kau lo jufra cu =
mulno
    .i go&#39;i =C4=ADe nai pei<br>
    <br>
    .i ji&#39;a lo nu zo mu&#39;o jai fanmo tu&#39;a lo jufra gi&#39;e na l=
i&#39;erla&#39;i su&#39;o
    da poi sumti vlapoi gi&#39;a me zo do&#39;u cu selja&#39;e lo nu lo te =
cusku na
    ka&#39;e birti lo du&#39;u lo cusku na ba jmina fe mu&#39;a lo sumti be=
 zo mu&#39;o
    .i ja&#39;e bo da&#39;i sarcu fa lo nu cusku su&#39;o menre ja simsa be=
 lu mu&#39;o
    do li&#39;u jo&#39;u lu mu&#39;o do&#39;u li&#39;u kei lo nu gau li&#39=
;armi fa lo du&#39;u mo&#39;u
    cusku<br>
    <br>
    .i lo ka gau ce&#39;u zo .i se lidne lo fanmo jufra cu simlu lo ka
    tolkargu traji danfu .i ge ja&#39;a selja&#39;e lo nu li&#39;armi fa lo=
 du&#39;u lo
    ro moi jufra cu mulno gi ku&#39;i ka&#39;e rinka lo nu faumlu fa lo nu =
lo
    cusku be zo .i pu&#39;o zi jmina su&#39;o cnino jufra<br>
    <br>
    .i ka&#39;e ku su&#39;o da poi cnino gi&#39;e smudu&#39;i lu mu&#39;o d=
o&#39;u li&#39;u gi&#39;e
    cmavo lo selma&#39;o be zo =C5=ADi xoi panra be lo nu zo .i&#39;o selma=
&#39;o be zo
    =C5=ADi ke smuni panra zo ki&#39;e cu mapti zmadu sei na birti<br>
    <br>
    .i lo ka ciska kei ve cusku noi lo se .irci cu mupli zo&#39;u lo du&#39=
;u lo
    se cusku cu mulno cu li&#39;armi ki&#39;u tu&#39;a lo sazycimde to lo n=
u lo se
    cusku cu tolcanci lo se .irci sazycimde cu na&#39;o selja&#39;e lo nu s=
ruma
    lo du&#39;u lo jufra cu mulno toi .i lo ka bacru kei ve cusku zo&#39;u =
ku&#39;i
    nabmi zmadu va&#39;o lo nu ma&#39;a je&#39;a djica lo du&#39;u lo jboba=
u zo&#39;u lo
    prosodi no da smuni<br>
    <br>
    ni&#39;o .a&#39;a do ma jinvi<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    mi&#39;e la .ilmen. mu&#39;o do&#39;u<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">


<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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