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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l1si184737wmb.3.2015.11.13.11.59.39 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a; Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id w144so42359856wmw.1 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:59:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.115.129 with SMTP id jo1mr24633077wjb.28.1447444778951; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (95-210-222-220.ip.skylogicnet.com. [95.210.222.220]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id pc2sm21345075wjb.11.2015.11.13.11.59.34 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:59:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <56464115.5080309@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:59:17 +0100 From: Ilmen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Marking sentence completion | ka sinxa lo du'u lo jufra cu mulno References: <7.0.1.0.2.20151112081952.032e54c8@cox.net> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151112081952.032e54c8@cox.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080300030704000101020206" X-Original-Sender: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080300030704000101020206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/11/2015 23:58, Robert Slaughter wrote: > There is already at least one cmavo for completion: > vau =E2=80=93 end simple bridi Certainly, but this is quite awkward when the sentence ends with a=20 deeply nested bridi (e.g. {cumki fa lo nu cumki fa lo nu cumki fa lo nu=20 fasnu (vau vau vau)}, because you need to keep track of the nesting=20 level in order to put the right number of {vau} at the end of the sentence. On 12/11/2015 14:22, Nora LeChevalier wrote: > Perhaps fa'o (end of text); meant as a real end, identifiable by=20 > computer that entry is done. Sure, {fa'o} is an interesting candidate for solving the issue; I can=20 however see one problem with {fa'o}: It can't be quoted within=20 {lu}-quotes, so you can't say things like {ra cusku lu je'e fa'o li'u}.=20 Maybe there should be a convention that quotes of texts ending with=20 {fa'o} should drop the final {fa'o}, although I'm unsure whether that's=20 desirable. > At 05:35 PM 11/12/2015, Ilmen wrote: >> coi ro do >> >> *[English]* >> >> There's something that worries me a little with sentences boundaries=20 >> in Lojban. >> >> One of the features of Lojban's design is that what is usually=20 >> carried by prosody (yes-no questions, subordinates and sentences=20 >> ends, etc.) is always encoded as function words. However, apart from=20 >> {mu'o do'u} or adding a final {.i}, there seem to be no way to=20 >> explicitly indicate that a sentence is complete and that the speaker=20 >> is done with it, so the listener doesn't have to wait indefinitely. >> >> If the listener has to rely on the duration of the pause after the=20 >> sentence, it would be similar to relying on prosody for knowing=20 >> whether a sentence is complete, wouldn't it? >> >> Furthermore, a {mu'o} without {do'u} or a sumti complement doesn't=20 >> make it clear that the speaker won't add {mu'o}'s argument later on,=20 >> so you would have to say {mu'o do} or {mu'o do'u} to mark=20 >> unambiguously explicitly that you have no more to say. >> >> A final trailing {.i} seems like the cheapest solution; but although=20 >> it does mark explicitly that the previous sentence is complete, it=20 >> may seem like the speaker is about to add a new sentence right after. >> >> Maybe a UI version of {mu'o} (just like {.i'o} is the UI version of=20 >> {ki'e}) would be handier. >> >> With textual communication media such as IRC, the end of a message is=20 >> pretty clearly marked in the interface (when a message is sent, it is=20 >> deemed complete); however, in spoken speech, things are more=20 >> problematic, if we absolutely want Lojban not to use any prosody. >> >> Any thought? >> >> >> *[jbobau]* >> >> da pe lo jbobau jufra korbi cu milxe co nabmi mi >> >> .i pa lo jbobau steci cu ka lo poi'i lo rarbau zo'u na'o pilno lo=20 >> za'e prosodi to mu'a lo bacru tonga toi tu'a ke'a kei noi lo jezyje'u=20 >> preti .e lo sinxa be lo jufra ja jufpau korbi be'o to famyma'o mu'a=20 >> toi cu mupli cu jai te pilno bi'ai ku lo cmavo .e nai lo prosodi .i=20 >> je ku'i no na nu jmina lu mu'o do'u li'u .a zo .i lo se cusku fanmo=20 >> cu simlu lo ka banzu lo nu lo te cusku gau sanji lo nu lo cusku cu=20 >> mo'u cusku .a lo nu lo ro moi jufra cu mulno kei ja'e lo nu na denpa=20 >> su'o nu da'i lo cusku cu jmina da lo ri prula'i jufra >> >> .i lo nu da'i lo te cusku cu nitcu su'o da poi ka denpa lo nu li rau=20 >> temci lo nu lo cusku co'u cusku ku'o lo ka co'a jinvi lo du'u ri ba'e=20 >> mo'u cusku cu da'i simsa lo nu lo te cusku cu nitcu lo ka lanli lo=20 >> mu'a bacru tonga kei lo ka djuno lo du'u xu kau lo jufra cu mulno .i=20 >> go'i =C3=84=C2=ADe nai pei >> >> .i ji'a lo nu zo mu'o jai fanmo tu'a lo jufra gi'e na li'erla'i su'o=20 >> da poi sumti vlapoi gi'a me zo do'u cu selja'e lo nu lo te cusku na=20 >> ka'e birti lo du'u lo cusku na ba jmina fe mu'a lo sumti be zo mu'o=20 >> .i ja'e bo da'i sarcu fa lo nu cusku su'o menre ja simsa be lu mu'o=20 >> do li'u jo'u lu mu'o do'u li'u kei lo nu gau li'armi fa lo du'u mo'u=20 >> cusku >> >> .i lo ka gau ce'u zo .i se lidne lo fanmo jufra cu simlu lo ka=20 >> tolkargu traji danfu .i ge ja'a selja'e lo nu li'armi fa lo du'u lo=20 >> ro moi jufra cu mulno gi ku'i ka'e rinka lo nu faumlu fa lo nu lo=20 >> cusku be zo .i pu'o zi jmina su'o cnino jufra >> >> .i ka'e ku su'o da poi cnino gi'e smudu'i lu mu'o do'u li'u gi'e=20 >> cmavo lo selma'o be zo =C3=85=C2=ADi xoi panra be lo nu zo .i'o selma'o = be zo=20 >> =C3=85=C2=ADi ke smuni panra zo ki'e cu mapti zmadu sei na birti >> >> .i lo ka ciska kei ve cusku noi lo se .irci cu mupli zo'u lo du'u lo=20 >> se cusku cu mulno cu li'armi ki'u tu'a lo sazycimde to lo nu lo se=20 >> cusku cu tolcanci lo se .irci sazycimde cu na'o selja'e lo nu sruma=20 >> lo du'u lo jufra cu mulno toi .i lo ka bacru kei ve cusku zo'u ku'i=20 >> nabmi zmadu va'o lo nu ma'a je'a djica lo du'u lo jbobau zo'u lo=20 >> prosodi no da smuni >> >> ni'o .a'a do ma jinvi >> >> >> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o do'u --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --------------080300030704000101020206 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 12/11/2015 23:58, Robert Slaughter wrote:
There is already at least one cmavo for completion:
vau =E2=80=93 end simple bridi
Certainly, but this is quite awkward when the sentence ends with a deeply nested bridi (e.g. {cumki fa lo nu cumki fa lo nu cumki fa lo nu fasnu (vau vau vau)}, because you need to keep track of the nesting level in order to put the right number of {vau} at the end of the sentence.


On 12/11/2015 14:22, Nora LeChevalier wrote:
Perhaps fa'o (end of text); meant as a real end, identifiable by computer that entry is done.
Sure, {fa'o} is an interesting candidate for solving the issue; I can however see one problem with {fa'o}: It can't be quoted within {lu}-quotes, so you can't say things like {ra cusku lu je'e fa'o li'u}. Maybe there should be a convention that quotes of texts ending with {fa'o} should drop the final {fa'o}, although I'm unsure whether that's desirable.


At 05:35 PM 11/12/2015, Ilmen wrote:
coi ro do

[English]

There's something that worries me a little with sentences boundaries in Lojban.

One of the features of Lojban's design is that what is usually carried by prosody (yes-no questions, subordinates and sentences ends, etc.) is always encoded as function words. However, apart from {mu'o do'u} or adding a final {.i}, there seem to be no way to explicitly indicate that a sentence is complete and that the speaker is done with it, so the listener doesn't have to wait indefinitely.

If the listener has to rely on the duration of the pause after the sentence, it would be similar to relying on prosody for knowing whether a sentence is complete, wouldn't it?

Furthermore, a {mu'o} without {do'u} or a sumti complement doesn't make it clear that the speaker won't add {mu'o}'s argument later on, so you would have to say {mu'o do} or {mu'o do'u} to mark unambiguously explicitly that you have no more to say.

A final trailing {.i} seems like the cheapest solution; but although it does mark explicitly that the previous sentence is complete, it may seem like the speaker is about to add a new sentence right after.

Maybe a UI version of {mu'o} (just like {.i'o} is the UI version of {ki'e}) would be handier.

With textual communication media such as IRC, the end of a message is pretty clearly marked in the interface (when a message is sent, it is deemed complete); however, in spoken speech, things are more problematic, if we absolutely want Lojban not to use any prosody.

Any thought?


[jbobau]

da pe lo jbobau jufra korbi cu milxe co nabmi mi

.i pa lo jbobau steci cu ka lo poi'i lo rarbau zo'u na'o pilno lo za'e prosodi to mu'a lo bacru tonga toi tu'a ke'a kei noi lo jezyje'u preti .e lo sinxa be lo jufra ja jufpau korbi be'o to famyma'o mu'a toi cu mupli cu jai te pilno bi'ai ku lo cmavo .e nai lo prosodi .i je ku'i no na nu jmina lu mu'o do'u li'u .a zo .i lo se cusku fanmo cu simlu lo ka banzu lo nu lo te cusku gau sanji lo nu lo cusku cu mo'u cusku .a lo nu lo ro moi jufra cu mulno kei ja'e lo nu na denpa su'o nu da'i lo cusku cu jmina da lo ri prula'i jufra

.i lo nu da'i lo te cusku cu nitcu su'o da poi ka denpa lo nu li rau temci lo nu lo cusku co'u cusku ku'o lo ka co'a jinvi lo du'u ri ba'e mo'u cusku cu da'i simsa lo nu lo te cusku cu nitcu lo ka lanli lo mu'a bacru tonga kei lo ka djuno lo du'u xu kau lo jufra cu mulno .i go'i =C3=84=C2=ADe nai pei

.i ji'a lo nu zo mu'o jai fanmo tu'a lo jufra gi'e na li'erla'i su'o da poi sumti vlapoi gi'a me zo do'u cu selja'e lo nu lo te cusku na ka'e birti lo du'u lo cusku na ba jmina fe mu'a lo sumti be zo mu'o .i ja'e bo da'i sarcu fa lo nu cusku su'o menre ja simsa be lu mu'o do li'u jo'u lu mu'o do'u li'u kei lo nu gau li'armi fa lo du'u mo'u cusku

.i lo ka gau ce'u zo .i se lidne lo fanmo jufra cu simlu lo ka tolkargu traji danfu .i ge ja'a selja'e lo nu li'armi fa lo du'u lo ro moi jufra cu mulno gi ku'i ka'e rinka lo nu faumlu fa lo nu lo cusku be zo .i pu'o zi jmina su'o cnino jufra

.i ka'e ku su'o da poi cnino gi'e smudu'i lu mu'o do'u li'u gi'e cmavo lo selma'o be zo =C3=85=C2=ADi xoi panra be lo nu zo .i'o selma'o be z= o =C3=85=C2=ADi ke smuni panra zo ki'e cu mapti zmadu sei na birti

.i lo ka ciska kei ve cusku noi lo se .irci cu mupli zo'u lo du'u lo se cusku cu mulno cu li'armi ki'u tu'a lo sazycimde to lo nu lo se cusku cu tolcanci lo se .irci sazycimde cu na'o selja'e lo nu sruma lo du'u lo jufra cu mulno toi .i lo ka bacru kei ve cusku zo'u ku'i nabmi zmadu va'o lo nu ma'a je'a djica lo du'u lo jbobau zo'u lo prosodi no da smuni

ni'o .a'a do ma jinvi


mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o do'u

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