Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:10:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Rui Liu <edenish.fallen@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <1315b07c-f827-4439-8b03-7c08eaef9889@googlegroups.com>
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 <20151212021849.4edc12ba@W5.localdomain>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Question about tanru and lujvo invention
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Thank you very much for your reply!

I wonder if there's way to express exactly one metaphorical meaning but=20
without using lujvo. For example, in English 'ace in the hole' has special=
=20
meaning, however I suppose such a rather complex idiom should better not be=
=20
made into a single word lujvo, and without using tanru as well.

Sorry about keep doubting on this problem. When I tell people around me=20
that I'm learning lojban, and introduce some of its concepts to them, the=
=20
common reaction is usually 'Isn't it too rigid compared with natural=20
language?' or 'Can artistic literature be created with it, without feeling=
=20
like some text under rules?' or 'Won't it be so regular that some beauty is=
=20
lost?'. Actually these are also some questions I want to ask. A list of a=
=20
thousand cmavo for merely grammatical use seems that the language focuses=
=20
too much on grammar. (Maybe it's the cost of syntax unambiguity?)

I understand that these questions are raised due to a conventional=20
impression on 'logical language' which are not pondered over deeply and=20
thoroughly. Even though I carefully pick up the most delicate sentence I=20
can find in literature, it's still under the grammar of that language in=20
which the sentence is written. That makes me think maybe grammar doesn't=20
actually constrain semantics as much as I used to feel. But I'm not quite=
=20
sure about that.

The doubt probably won't be dispelled until I actually see some creative=20
text originally written in lojban to convince me enough. I noticed there's=
=20
translation for Alice. My current lojban skills still can't support me to=
=20
read it, so I will keep on learning and come back to see this question.

Yet another question, how are gismu semantics be chosen? i.e. How to=20
determine if a certain meaning is 'basic enough'?

And finally, thanks again for answering my beginner question!

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 1:18:58 AM UTC, Wuzzy wrote:
>
> Since I think nobody actually answered the questions but just babbled=20
> around it, I'll answer them.=20
>
> > For example, cadzu mroxadni (walking corpse) can mean zombie, but=20
> > also (more artistically) someone who's not living a meaningful life.=20
> > For me, both of the meanings are interesting, it seems a pity to lose=
=20
> > either of it.=20
> You don't =E2=80=9Close=E2=80=9D one or the other meaning by creating a l=
ujvo, because=20
> you can always create another lujvo, but the other lujvo must be based=20
> on a different tanru.=20
> So the second meaning is not lost, it is just differently expressed.=20
>
> > So I wonder is there some way to record both concepts down?=20
> Yes. Of course it is possible to pin down both concepts. You do this by=
=20
> using lujvo built from different tanru.=20
>
> As for your example, the second meaning sounds very metaphorically, so=20
> I would throw a =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D into it; =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D ha=
s a rafsi, so you could build=20
> a lujvo like =E2=80=9Cpevdzumroxadni=E2=80=9D for the methaphor.=20
>
> > More=20
> > generally, how to assign different "shortcuts" (like lujvo) to=20
> > different meanings of a single tanru?=20
> This is not possible without breaking the rules of Lojban.=20
> As you have said, a lujvo represents a single meaning of the many=20
> possible interpretations of a tanru.=20
>
> That way, you can be sure that =E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D simply means =E2=
=80=9Cdog house=E2=80=9D and=20
> not something far-fetched, like a house which looks like a dog (which=20
> could be one of many possible interpretations of =E2=80=9Cgerku zdani=E2=
=80=9D). ;-)=20
>
> The general rule is simply: 1 lujvo =3D 1 meaning.=20
>
> But what you could try is try to kinda work around this. If you really=20
> think a tanru has two equally =E2=80=9Cimportant=E2=80=9D meanings, try t=
o make a=20
> slight variation. For your second meaning, alter a word or two. Or=20
> maybe throw in some cmavo (like =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D if you are using a=
 metaphor).=20
>
> --=20
> Wuzzy=20
> XMPP: Wuz...@jabber.ccc.de <javascript:>=20
> E-Mail: wuz...@mail.ru <javascript:>=20
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><input type=3D"tex=
t" tabindex=3D"-1" role=3D"presentation" style=3D"height: 1px; opacity: 0; =
width: 1px; z-index: -1; overflow: hidden;"><div><div style=3D"overflow: sc=
roll;"><div style=3D"max-height: 10000px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you very =
much for your reply!<div><br></div><div>I wonder if there&#39;s way to expr=
ess exactly one metaphorical meaning but without using lujvo. For example, =
in English &#39;ace in the hole&#39; has special meaning, however I suppose=
 such a rather complex idiom should better not be made into a single word l=
ujvo, and without using tanru as well.</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry about=
 keep doubting on this problem. When I tell people around me that I&#39;m l=
earning lojban, and introduce some of its concepts to them, the common reac=
tion is usually &#39;Isn&#39;t it too rigid compared with natural language?=
&#39; or &#39;Can artistic literature be created with it, without feeling l=
ike some text under rules?&#39; or &#39;Won&#39;t it be so regular that som=
e beauty is lost?&#39;. Actually these are also some questions I want to as=
k. A list of a thousand cmavo for merely grammatical use seems that the lan=
guage focuses too much on grammar. (Maybe it&#39;s the cost of syntax unamb=
iguity?)</div><div><br></div><div>I understand that these questions are rai=
sed due to a conventional impression on &#39;logical language&#39; which ar=
e not pondered over deeply and thoroughly. Even though I carefully pick up =
the most delicate sentence I can find in literature, it&#39;s still under t=
he grammar of that language in which the sentence is written. That makes me=
 think maybe grammar doesn&#39;t actually constrain semantics as much as I =
used to feel. But I&#39;m not quite sure about that.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>The doubt probably won&#39;t be dispelled until I actually see some crea=
tive text originally written in lojban to convince me enough. I noticed the=
re&#39;s translation for Alice. My current lojban skills still can&#39;t su=
pport me to read it, so I will keep on learning and come back to see this q=
uestion.</div><div><br></div><div>Yet another question, how are gismu seman=
tics be chosen? i.e. How to determine if a certain meaning is &#39;basic en=
ough&#39;?</div><div><br></div><div>And finally, thanks again for answering=
 my beginner question!</div></div></div></div></div><br>On Saturday, Decemb=
er 12, 2015 at 1:18:58 AM UTC, Wuzzy wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left: 1ex;">Since I think nobody actually answered the questions but just =
babbled
<br>around it, I&#39;ll answer them.
<br>
<br>&gt; For example, cadzu mroxadni (walking corpse) can mean zombie, but
<br>&gt; also (more artistically) someone who&#39;s not living a meaningful=
 life.
<br>&gt; For me, both of the meanings are interesting, it seems a pity to l=
ose
<br>&gt; either of it.
<br>You don&#39;t =E2=80=9Close=E2=80=9D one or the other meaning by creati=
ng a lujvo, because
<br>you can always create another lujvo, but the other lujvo must be based
<br>on a different tanru.
<br>So the second meaning is not lost, it is just differently expressed.
<br>
<br>&gt; So I wonder is there some way to record both concepts down?
<br>Yes. Of course it is possible to pin down both concepts. You do this by
<br>using lujvo built from different tanru.
<br>
<br>As for your example, the second meaning sounds very metaphorically, so
<br>I would throw a =E2=80=9Cpe&#39;a=E2=80=9D into it; =E2=80=9Cpe&#39;a=
=E2=80=9D has a rafsi, so you could build
<br>a lujvo like =E2=80=9Cpevdzumroxadni=E2=80=9D for the methaphor.
<br>
<br>&gt; More
<br>&gt; generally, how to assign different &quot;shortcuts&quot; (like luj=
vo) to
<br>&gt; different meanings of a single tanru?
<br>This is not possible without breaking the rules of Lojban.
<br>As you have said, a lujvo represents a single meaning of the many
<br>possible interpretations of a tanru.
<br>
<br>That way, you can be sure that =E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D simply means =
=E2=80=9Cdog house=E2=80=9D and
<br>not something far-fetched, like a house which looks like a dog (which
<br>could be one of many possible interpretations of =E2=80=9Cgerku zdani=
=E2=80=9D). ;-)
<br>
<br>The general rule is simply: 1 lujvo =3D 1 meaning.
<br>
<br>But what you could try is try to kinda work around this. If you really
<br>think a tanru has two equally =E2=80=9Cimportant=E2=80=9D meanings, try=
 to make a
<br>slight variation. For your second meaning, alter a word or two. Or
<br>maybe throw in some cmavo (like =E2=80=9Cpe&#39;a=E2=80=9D if you are u=
sing a metaphor).
<br>
<br>--=20
<br>Wuzzy
<br>XMPP: <a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=
=3D"qGDAtRA0CwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascri=
pt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return =
true;">Wuz...@jabber.ccc.de</a>
<br>E-Mail: <a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=
=3D"qGDAtRA0CwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascri=
pt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return =
true;">wuz...@mail.ru</a>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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