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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 202si493265wmf.2.2015.12.20.00.57.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Dec 2015 00:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::235; Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id p187so34325892wmp.0 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 00:57:21 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.28.136.149 with SMTP id k143mr12728975wmd.57.1450601841597; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 00:57:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 00:56:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:56:42 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11443ed87aa2670527508fc0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11443ed87aa2670527508fc0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-12-20 11:24 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2015-12-20 7:09 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen : > >> > >> > >> On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >>> > >>> When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I aimed at > the > >>> full translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban being adde= d > to > >>> Vivaldi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due to > incomplete > >>> translations. > >>> > >>> However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously translate. > The > >>> string is > >>> "Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeholder in the brows= er > >>> search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Search Bing" and similar. > >>> > >>> And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions. > >>> 1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'o la'oi Google}. The > >>> experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not contain > spaces of > >>> pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can add a search > engine > >>> leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} where "MediaWiki" > hangs in > >>> space. > >>> 2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search engine named > >>> ".zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an empty string and the > last > >>> ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to change "zoi" > separators on > >>> the fly. > >>> 3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a user > interface > >>> widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text. > >>> > >>> widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li'u}. > >>> > >>> This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a thing in itself > but > >>> this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms. > >>> > >>> "Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Search " we have an > arbitrary > >>> plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is reached. > >>> > >>> I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to catch > >>> non-Lojban text until the end of file/feed is reached. > >>> > >>> But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the language. > >>> > >> > >> Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather than > here. > > > > > > Missed that sentence. > > Yes and no. > > > > Technically Lojban has a solution (la'o zoi ... zoi with changing > delimiters > > when needed). > > But then comes a part not dependent on the language. > > I initially posted a message about my translation > > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/da6VUtMDDLE/discussion > > > > saying "Feedback is more than welcomed." > > > > However, no such feedback has ever been provided in the mailing list. > > > > If someone disagrees with the localization or wants to suggest somethin= g > > the correct algorithm is > > TO PROVIDE FEEDBACK > > > > like Ilmen just did. > > > > The same applies to other projects where I'm asking for help. If a help > or > > feedback is requested then it's needed! > > Don't hesitate to reply to such requests! > > > > I'm sorry for not providing feedback there, but it's because the > problem of {la'oi} in the search box is too indifferent for me to post > a message. {la'oi} is roughly as good as {la'o zoi ... zoi} in the conditions given. I'm completely surprised that pure technical issues taking place beyond Lojbanistan are thought to be related to something inside. > The problem became however important after I found your > intolerance of my experimental parsers: it was a turning point that > you became my eternal enemy. I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers are merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it. Changing Lojban is breaking its community which already happened once in 2004. It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if the language is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if this is going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over even more backward incompatible changes. It is lucky of you to be my enemy because > I will make more effort than before to report your faults. > > Anyway, the current topic is out of subject of LLG meeting. I suggest > continuing it on the main list if necessary. > > > > By the way I have already implemented Ilmen's proposal with {ti} + > {fa'o}. > > It should come to Vivaldi technical releases in a few weeks. Just feel > free > > to update it regularly. > > > >> > >> If the string to be translated is of the form "... %s ..." (with %s > >> standing for the name of the search engine), then I think something li= ke > >> {la'o cirlrbri. %s .cirlrbri} does pretty good (with some separator wo= rd > >> that'd be very unlikely to clash with the name of the browser, unless > this > >> latter one is chosen intentionally to clash with the separator). > >> > >> Another option could be using something like =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo s= e cmene > >> be ti =E2=86=92 fa'o %s =C2=BB or =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se cmene be = lo se lidne be dei > fa'o > >> %s =C2=BB. > >> > >> =E2=80=94Ilmen. > >> > > > I prefer =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se cmene be lo se lidne be dei fa'o %s = =C2=BB > among Ilmen's solutions. Gleki may be misunderstanding {dei} of it if > he think it contains a problem. Oh my. I had just chosen the first option and shortened it so that the name of search engine could still be visible. > However, > =C2=AB sisku fa'o %s =C2=BB > is my best preference from a point of view of shortness. > Fixed to that. Given that you are interested in localization of browsers then maybe you can join localization team and at least proofread the whole list of localization strings? I stopped begging Lojbanists for such things long ago. But maybe it's simply a misunderstanding that someone can control the whole process of localizing this browser? You may join via here. https://www.transifex.com/vivaldi-browser/ I also made a rough copy of the whole set of localization strings but it lacks context which is sometimes necessary. So I strongly suggest using Transifex instead (it has "discussions" functionality for each localization string). > > mu'o mi'e la guskant > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11443ed87aa2670527508fc0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-20 11:24 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
2015-12-20 7:= 09 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>>>
>>> When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I a= imed at the
>>> full translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban bei= ng added to
>>> Vivaldi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due t= o incomplete
>>> translations.
>>>
>>> However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously = translate. The
>>> string is
>>> "Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeho= lder in the browser
>>> search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Searc= h Bing" and similar.
>>>
>>> And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions.
>>> 1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'= ;o la'oi Google}. The
>>> experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not c= ontain spaces of
>>> pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can add a = search engine
>>> leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} where= "MediaWiki" hangs in
>>> space.
>>> 2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search eng= ine named
>>> ".zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an e= mpty string and the last
>>> ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to ch= ange "zoi" separators on
>>> the fly.
>>> 3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a= user interface
>>> widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text.
>>>
>>> widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li&= #39;u}.
>>>
>>> This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a t= hing in itself but
>>> this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms.
>>>
>>> "Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Sea= rch " we have an arbitrary
>>> plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is reached= .
>>>
>>> I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to cat= ch
>>> non-Lojban text until the end of file/feed is reached.
>>>
>>> But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the la= nguage.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather tha= n here.
>
>
> Missed that sentence.
> Yes and no.
>
> Technically Lojban has a solution (la'o zoi ... zoi with changing = delimiters
> when needed).
> But then comes a part not dependent on the language.
> I initially posted a message about my translation
> https://groups.google.com/d/topi= c/lojban/da6VUtMDDLE/discussion
>
> saying "Feedback is more than welcomed."
>
> However, no such feedback has ever been provided in the mailing list.<= br> >
> If someone disagrees with the localization or wants to suggest somethi= ng
> the correct algorithm is
> TO PROVIDE FEEDBACK
>
> like Ilmen just did.
>
> The same applies to other projects where I'm asking for help. If a= help or
> feedback is requested then it's needed!
> Don't hesitate to reply to such requests!
>

I'm sorry for not providing feedback there, but it's be= cause the
problem of {la'oi} in the search box is too indifferent for me to post<= br> a message.

{la'oi} is roughly as good a= s {la'o zoi ... zoi} in the conditions given.
I'm complet= ely surprised that pure technical issues taking place beyond Lojbanistan ar= e thought to be related to something inside.

=C2= =A0
The problem became however important after I foun= d your
intolerance of my experimental parsers: it was a turning point that
you became my eternal enemy.

I'm intole= rant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers are merely a play= toy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it.
Changing Lojban is = breaking its community which already happened once in 2004.

<= /div>
It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly = incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if the la= nguage is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if this i= s going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over ev= en more backward incompatible changes.


<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex"> It is lucky of you to be my enemy because
I will make more effort than before to report your faults.

Anyway, the current topic is out of subject of LLG meeting. I suggest
continuing it on the main list if necessary.


> By the way I have already implemented Ilmen's proposal with {ti} += {fa'o}.
> It should come to Vivaldi technical releases in a few weeks. Just feel= free
> to update it regularly.
>
>>
>> If the string to be translated is of the form "... %s ...&quo= t; (with %s
>> standing for the name of the search engine), then I think somethin= g like
>> {la'o cirlrbri. %s .cirlrbri} does pretty good (with some sepa= rator word
>> that'd be very unlikely to clash with the name of the browser,= unless this
>> latter one is chosen intentionally to clash with the separator). >>
>> Another option could be using something like =C2=AB sisku se pi= 9;o lo se cmene
>> be ti =E2=86=92 fa'o %s =C2=BB or =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo = se cmene be lo se lidne be dei fa'o
>> %s =C2=BB.
>>
>> =E2=80=94Ilmen.
>>


I prefer =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se cmene be lo se lidne be dei = fa'o %s =C2=BB
among Ilmen's solutions. Gleki may be misunderstanding {dei} of it if he think it contains a problem.

Oh my. I ha= d just chosen the first option and shortened it so that the name of search = engine could still be visible.
=C2=A0
= However,
=C2=AB sisku fa'o %s =C2=BB
is my best preference from a point of view of shortness.

Fixed to that. Given that you are interested in localizat= ion of browsers then=C2=A0
maybe you can join localization team a= nd at least proofread the whole list of localization strings?
I stopped begging Lojbanists for such things long ago.
But maybe it's simply a misunderstanding that someone can control the= whole process of localizing this browser?

You= may join via here.

=
I also made a rough copy of the whole = set of localization strings but it lacks context which is sometimes necessa= ry.
So I strongly suggest using Transifex instead (it has "d= iscussions" functionality for each localization string).
=C2= =A0

mu'o mi'e la guskant

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11443ed87aa2670527508fc0--