Received: from mail-vk0-f64.google.com ([209.85.213.64]:33833) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aAaLf-00011Y-Tv for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 01:32:24 -0800 Received: by mail-vk0-f64.google.com with SMTP id a188sf36582661vkc.1 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 01:32:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=r8IArtAS0foM5+xsX/qXkl1gEj2fzJsBNqItR0v7wUA=; b=nbFfb7I0QSSIC2s4reRj+jYrL+TbZNeDasnB4p+IecAtVMCK1KBerF+uPvdwz0fXWx X7BoMkvnxqV7B+srCg6MzScqkyEjOeZOKXE92kSkBowc3vf4wZKjpcCZgRc7K8vIquoZ i9zpBlHnxtMmg0hFvKWzyfI4ZLhWnUhxAcOsPO1Pgkkfm1wKaoxGCm/COynuivKgxedJ Y0bEaiPGr357gsPfepM2/jnaVBXzs9An1I572kk4tjqIJi7U5B6E6TVRyuasmd5eO5s7 YmAWKRr2nJxke5r68BD5PntR9mTpi4M2MjSgsak19n53oeCFuw4MmP83dwkuGOW5ph86 OZuw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=r8IArtAS0foM5+xsX/qXkl1gEj2fzJsBNqItR0v7wUA=; b=aABJv4bbm1UiNoN5rHfxeLy2jcp3yTKtV3X/muKcH4J5wymHAweammKVguPr79emHc MKfFixPHm9o3eBK7okF6okHXu3zCQj2aQsR582cS1O9/8jzavimZ4mittuHNqs5dZIcL IIYJctCRcY7YrTTiqK+o9Nwe4etEUNfyPjcjWSYzXlsc3NDGJIKRx6fCEoqimC/H4ocT SJjks3VJsZpVnJUEPhl0MNxziHEKNm2+K4jS2nyob8DKgWeDWAH6yyKRogYgehYfOFot 5Ny9RXltYL3pYzoVdR5YbkTrNv2u4fdEP2yIdYEw9eMsPE5ZEkLgx+6SkWHl+JKTy4vt 2tOQ== X-Received: by 10.140.98.102 with SMTP id n93mr165464qge.8.1450603929989; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 01:32:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.29.9 with SMTP id a9ls1979915qga.99.gmail; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 01:32:09 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.43.54 with SMTP id d51mr162614qga.19.1450603929479; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 01:32:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 01:32:08 -0800 (PST) From: guskant To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_330_168076585.1450603928596" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_330_168076585.1450603928596 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_331_1170736151.1450603928596" ------=_Part_331_1170736151.1450603928596 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > > > > 2015-12-20 11:24 GMT+03:00 guskant >: > >> 2015-12-20 7:09 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna > >: >> > >> > >> > 2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen >: >> >> >> >> >> >> On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >> >>> >> >>> When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I aimed a= t=20 >> the >> >>> full translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban being=20 >> added to >> >>> Vivaldi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due to=20 >> incomplete >> >>> translations. >> >>> >> >>> However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously translate.= =20 >> The >> >>> string is >> >>> "Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeholder in the=20 >> browser >> >>> search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Search Bing" and similar. >> >>> >> >>> And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions. >> >>> 1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'o la'oi Google}. The >> >>> experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not contain=20 >> spaces of >> >>> pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can add a search= =20 >> engine >> >>> leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} where "MediaWiki"= =20 >> hangs in >> >>> space. >> >>> 2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search engine named >> >>> ".zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an empty string and the= =20 >> last >> >>> ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to change "zoi"=20 >> separators on >> >>> the fly. >> >>> 3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a user=20 >> interface >> >>> widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text. >> >>> >> >>> widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li'u}. >> >>> >> >>> This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a thing in itself= =20 >> but >> >>> this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms. >> >>> >> >>> "Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Search " we have an=20 >> arbitrary >> >>> plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is reached. >> >>> >> >>> I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to catch >> >>> non-Lojban text until the end of file/feed is reached. >> >>> >> >>> But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the language= . >> >>> >> >> >> >> Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather than= =20 >> here. >> > >> > >> > Missed that sentence. >> > Yes and no. >> > >> > Technically Lojban has a solution (la'o zoi ... zoi with changing=20 >> delimiters >> > when needed). >> > But then comes a part not dependent on the language. >> > I initially posted a message about my translation >> > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/da6VUtMDDLE/discussion >> > >> > saying "Feedback is more than welcomed." >> > >> > However, no such feedback has ever been provided in the mailing list. >> > >> > If someone disagrees with the localization or wants to suggest somethi= ng >> > the correct algorithm is >> > TO PROVIDE FEEDBACK >> > >> > like Ilmen just did. >> > >> > The same applies to other projects where I'm asking for help. If a hel= p=20 >> or >> > feedback is requested then it's needed! >> > Don't hesitate to reply to such requests! >> > >> >> I'm sorry for not providing feedback there, but it's because the >> problem of {la'oi} in the search box is too indifferent for me to post >> a message. > > > {la'oi} is roughly as good as {la'o zoi ... zoi} in the conditions given. > I'm completely surprised that pure technical issues taking place beyond= =20 > Lojbanistan are thought to be related to something inside. > > =20 > >> The problem became however important after I found your >> intolerance of my experimental parsers: it was a turning point that >> you became my eternal enemy. > > > I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers are= =20 > merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it. > Changing Lojban is breaking its community which already happened once in= =20 > 2004. > > It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly incompatible= =20 > with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if the language is= =20 > starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if this is going to= =20 > happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over even more=20 > backward incompatible changes. > > Teaching {la'oi} in your course and abusing a statement in NU clause: what= =20 a double standard of you! It's you who broke so-called Lojbanistan by=20 expelling me.=20 https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_egocentrism_of_a_Lojban_community =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_331_1170736151.1450603928596 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9cr= it=C2=A0:

=

2015-12-20 11:24 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
2015-12-20 7:09 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>: >
>
> 2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen <ilmen....@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>>>
>>> When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I a= imed at the
>>> full translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban bei= ng added to
>>> Vivaldi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due t= o incomplete
>>> translations.
>>>
>>> However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously = translate. The
>>> string is
>>> "Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeho= lder in the browser
>>> search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Searc= h Bing" and similar.
>>>
>>> And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions.
>>> 1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'= ;o la'oi Google}. The
>>> experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not c= ontain spaces of
>>> pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can add a = search engine
>>> leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} where= "MediaWiki" hangs in
>>> space.
>>> 2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search eng= ine named
>>> ".zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an e= mpty string and the last
>>> ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to ch= ange "zoi" separators on
>>> the fly.
>>> 3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a= user interface
>>> widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text.
>>>
>>> widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li&= #39;u}.
>>>
>>> This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a t= hing in itself but
>>> this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms.
>>>
>>> "Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Sea= rch " we have an arbitrary
>>> plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is reached= .
>>>
>>> I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to cat= ch
>>> non-Lojban text until the end of file/feed is reached.
>>>
>>> But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the la= nguage.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather tha= n here.
>
>
> Missed that sentence.
> Yes and no.
>
> Technically Lojban has a solution (la'o zoi ... zoi with changing = delimiters
> when needed).
> But then comes a part not dependent on the language.
> I initially posted a message about my translation
> https://groups.google.com/d/= topic/lojban/da6VUtMDDLE/discussion
>
> saying "Feedback is more than welcomed."
>
> However, no such feedback has ever been provided in the mailing list.<= br> >
> If someone disagrees with the localization or wants to suggest somethi= ng
> the correct algorithm is
> TO PROVIDE FEEDBACK
>
> like Ilmen just did.
>
> The same applies to other projects where I'm asking for help. If a= help or
> feedback is requested then it's needed!
> Don't hesitate to reply to such requests!
>

I'm sorry for not providing feedback there, but it's be= cause the
problem of {la'oi} in the search box is too indifferent for me to post<= br> a message.

{la'oi} is roughly as good a= s {la'o zoi ... zoi} in the conditions given.
I'm complet= ely surprised that pure technical issues taking place beyond Lojbanistan ar= e thought to be related to something inside.

=C2= =A0
The problem became however important after I foun= d your
intolerance of my experimental parsers: it was a turning point that
you became my eternal enemy.

I'm intole= rant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers are merely a play= toy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it.
Changing Lojban is = breaking its community which already happened once in 2004.

<= /div>
It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly = incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if the la= nguage is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if this i= s going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over ev= en more backward incompatible changes.


Teaching {la'oi} in your course and = abusing a statement in NU clause: what a double standard of you! It's y= ou who broke so-called Lojbanistan by expelling me.=C2=A0
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/= The_egocentrism_of_a_Lojban_community
=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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