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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e201si545042wma.3.2015.12.20.03.12.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c; Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id l126so37039707wml.1 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:12:27 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.28.88.199 with SMTP id m190mr14701607wmb.55.1450609947331; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:12:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:11:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <63d48970-5e61-4e4e-b4f0-aa60b5561c89@googlegroups.com> References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> <63d48970-5e61-4e4e-b4f0-aa60b5561c89@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:11:47 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114351b89e56b5052752720b X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114351b89e56b5052752720b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-12-20 13:55 GMT+03:00 : > > > Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 10:13:29 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >> >> >> >> 2015-12-20 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >>> >>> >>> Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers are >>>> merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it. >>>> Changing Lojban is breaking its community which already happened once >>>> in 2004. >>>> >>>> It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly >>>> incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if t= he >>>> language is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if thi= s is >>>> going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over eve= n >>>> more backward incompatible changes. >>>> >>>> >>> Teaching {la'oi} in your course and abusing a statement in NU clause: >>> what a double standard of you! It's you who broke so-called Lojbanistan= by >>> expelling me. >>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_egocentrism_of_a_Lojban_community >>> >> >> 1. I didn't expel you. I'm just documenting what people are using. As I >> said I perceive the situation as starting the language from scratch. But >> when some person says "let's drop this usage" it's breaking communicatio= n. >> > > You did. See the proof in the page of URL above. > I don't understand that page, sorry. At all :( Don't understand reasoning, just nothing. You may try discussing it with other people. > > >> 2. Am I supposed not to teach {la'oi}? Then how one would understand wha= t >> this {la'oi} means? >> > > Simply teach that it's not Lojban. Even doing it, the learner will find i= t > in jbovlaste, and understand the usage. > Definition in jbovlaste are usually cryptic and the website currently lacks satisfactory tools to show examples. Maybe instead add a notice that {la'oi} is ... I don't know what adjective to use so that it can suit you. "not mainstream", "used by some people"? The section already has the section "usage is problematic". Also I not precisely explained how my course is to be used. So I clarified the very first paragraph explaining the algorithm of using the course. To use one is supposed to provide feedback. Other usage is not approved. I understand that readers in past could understand this course as a still finalized book despite warnings that it was a draft. > > >> 3. People are using {la'oi}. I don't understand how {la'oi} breaks CLL. >> This particle is backward compatible. What problems are you having with = it? >> I can only see that for you {la'oi} is not neutral towards Polynesian >> languages. But we already know that Lojban is not neutral. Why are you >> accusing me of teaching it? The little blame gets all the blame? The sam= e >> as before. If one does nothing 'ey can't be blaimed. Is this what is >> desired? >> > > It breaks CLL 1.1 by forcing learners cultural non-neutrality. As for the > correctness of CLL, use bpfk list: > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/5_SDz58KJAw/discussion > > > >> 4. I don't understand what does mean "abusing a statement in NU clause"? >> Using {nu} where {du'u} is to be used? It's from xorxe's Alice. If there= is >> some underformalization going on I don't have time to resolve it when >> everything is working anyways. >> >> > No, I simply meant syntactic form "NU statement (KEI)", which require som= e > KEI non-elidible more than camxes. You abused also my parser parses > differently from camxes as follows: > > ([{ro BOI} {mo } KU] VAU) > > ([{ mo KU} {cu VAU}] IAU) > > ([{ mo KU} {ge GIhI}] IAU) > > You did then said "ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau", which > implies that you expelled me from so-called Lojbanistan. > Oh, hm. Now I see. But that reasoning also implies that I expelled myself too .o'u. > > You didn't mention that your parser for your course "camxes-exp" parses > cmevla as tanru unit: it is already backward incompatible to camxes. It i= s > another evidence of your double standard. > Indeed, it's a mistake to be corrected. I will change to a better parser in future but currently I lack free time. It's not double standard. I simply can't do the work for everyone. I also wish you sent feedback directly to me as the course asks, not collect some evidence as my own opinion. I'm only a collector and a teacher, not a designer of languages. --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114351b89e56b5052752720b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-20 13:55 GMT+03:00 <jacfold.guskant@gmail.com>= :


Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9ce= mbre 2015 10:13:29 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


2015-12-20 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:


Le di= manche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

=C2=A0
<= div>
I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my un= official parsers are merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break= it.
Changing Lojban is breaking its community which already happ= ened once in 2004.

It's a pity that the curren= t Lojban is probably irreversibly incompatible with CLL, I only have to acc= ept that and perceive as if the language is starting from scratch. But I of= course can't accept if this is going to happen on a regular basis. Tha= t's why my intolerance over even more backward incompatible changes.


Teaching {la'oi} in your course and abusing a statement in NU cla= use: what a double standard of you! It's you who broke so-called Lojban= istan by expelling me.=C2=A0

1. I didn't expel you. I'm ju= st documenting what people are using. As I said I perceive the situation as= starting the language from scratch. But when some person says "let= 9;s drop this usage" it's breaking communication.=C2=A0

You did. See the proof= in the page of URL above.

I don'= t understand that page, sorry. At all :( Don't understand reasoning, ju= st nothing. You may try discussing it with other people.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
2. Am I s= upposed not to teach {la'oi}? Then how one would understand what this {= la'oi} means?

Simply teach that it's not Lojban. Even doing it, the learner wil= l find it in jbovlaste, and understand the usage.
Definition in jbovlaste are usually cryptic and the website cu= rrently lacks satisfactory tools to show examples.
Maybe instead = add a notice that {la'oi} is ...=C2=A0 I don't know what adjective = to use so that it can suit you. "not mainstream", "used by s= ome people"? The section already has the section "usage is proble= matic".

Also I not precisely explained how my= course is to be used. So I clarified the very first paragraph explaining t= he algorithm of using the course. To use one is supposed to provide feedbac= k. Other usage is not approved.

I understand that = readers in past could understand this course as a still finalized book desp= ite warnings that it was a draft.

=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0
3.= People are using {la'oi}. I don't understand how {la'oi} break= s CLL. This particle is backward compatible. What problems are you having w= ith it? I can only see that for you {la'oi} is not neutral towards Poly= nesian languages. But we already know that Lojban is not neutral. Why are y= ou accusing me of teaching it? The little blame gets all the blame? The sam= e as before. If one does nothing 'ey can't be blaimed. Is this what= is desired?

It breaks CLL 1.1 by forcing learners cultural non-neutrality. As for the = correctness of CLL, use bpfk list:

=C2=A0
4. I don't under= stand what does mean "abusing a statement in NU clause"? Using {n= u} where {du'u} is to be used? It's from xorxe's Alice. If ther= e is some underformalization going on I don't have time to resolve it w= hen everything is working anyways.


No, I simply meant syntactic form= "NU statement (KEI)", which require some KEI non-elidible more t= han camxes. You abused also my parser parses differently from camxes as fol= lows:

([{ro BOI} {mo <ge mo (=C2=B9gi mo= =C2=B9) GIhI>} KU] VAU)=C2=A0

([{<ro BOI>= mo KU} {cu <ge mo (=C2=B9gi mo=C2=B9) GIhI> VAU}] IAU)=C2=A0

([{<ro BOI> mo KU} {ge <cu (=C2=B9mo VAU=C2=B9)&= gt; <gi (=C2=B9CU [mo VAU]=C2=B9)> GIhI}] IAU)=C2=A0
=

You did then said "ja'o = lo=C2=A0guskanbau=C2=A0cu ban= zu frica lo jbobau", which implies that you expelled me from so-called= Lojbanistan.

Oh, hm. Now I se= e. But that reasoning also implies that I expelled myself too .o'u.
=C2=A0

=
You didn't mention that your parser f= or your course "camxes-exp" parses cmevla as tanru unit: it is al= ready backward incompatible to camxes. It is another evidence of your doubl= e standard.

Indeed, it's a= mistake to be corrected. I will change to a better parser in future but cu= rrently I lack free time. It's not double standard. I simply can't = do the work for everyone.
=C2=A0

I also = wish you sent feedback directly to me as the course asks, not collect some = evidence as my own opinion.
I'm only a collector and a teache= r, not a designer of languages.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a114351b89e56b5052752720b--