Received: from mail-lb0-f185.google.com ([209.85.217.185]:34334) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aAdem-00042z-Vy for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:16 -0800 Received: by mail-lb0-f185.google.com with SMTP id l5sf17540291lbs.1 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=uTQFGwu+TmYixntRYiJHPC3jYPMU5eBJCF2fCYbu6Ug=; b=WLOR5mGoXMKsoNk6z2ufxgZwqKk+lCfn3J1bDR9yhpWXgCaAe/G59pYovHEIvJ5VRx 2B+jjAf/bBcVxdGjXvH1PrBaYFoMGBCJHWBFu0RO+Kko/f7bhsg/rXrl5bZIo54sQDIn KkdRBKWjUeNv1jaIyIQI21KRPci7sNIPmgeKqV7Q1VpBKYgrCLiRB0yuBtlxvi6otIf3 mKUhK6S+wUV/miWhSdCrq+cxZe1AYoNksXCxO2M3tCZAT90dUqT4no2R29dY5o+2kXT1 C/5ZFY2f28R3+ylsoZxG8ttrG4M6e/xL59H+LXl5siNavIITc4NOZjlasci5TGogmiqB rFZQ== X-Received: by 10.25.169.21 with SMTP id s21mr109626lfe.9.1450616646161; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.25.159.206 with SMTP id i197ls601945lfe.56.gmail; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:05 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.112.234.225 with SMTP id uh1mr1285969lbc.1.1450616645245; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 202si520602wmf.2.2015.12.20.05.04.05 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d; Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id p187so38211050wmp.1 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:05 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.28.215.209 with SMTP id o200mr13417760wmg.31.1450616645060; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:04:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 05:03:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> <63d48970-5e61-4e4e-b4f0-aa60b5561c89@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 16:03:25 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11467c4cd590720527540112 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11467c4cd590720527540112 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-12-20 14:45 GMT+03:00 guskant : > > > Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 11:12:28 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >> >> >> >> 2015-12-20 13:55 GMT+03:00 : >> >>> >>> >>> Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 10:13:29 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-12-20 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit= : >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers >>>>>> are merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it. >>>>>> Changing Lojban is breaking its community which already happened onc= e >>>>>> in 2004. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly >>>>>> incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if= the >>>>>> language is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if t= his is >>>>>> going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over e= ven >>>>>> more backward incompatible changes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Teaching {la'oi} in your course and abusing a statement in NU clause: >>>>> what a double standard of you! It's you who broke so-called Lojbanist= an by >>>>> expelling me. >>>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_egocentrism_of_a_Lojban_community >>>>> >>>> >>>> 1. I didn't expel you. I'm just documenting what people are using. As = I >>>> said I perceive the situation as starting the language from scratch. B= ut >>>> when some person says "let's drop this usage" it's breaking communicat= ion. >>>> >>> >>> You did. See the proof in the page of URL above. >>> >> >> I don't understand that page, sorry. At all :( Don't understand >> reasoning, just nothing. You may try discussing it with other people. >> >>> >>> >>>> 2. Am I supposed not to teach {la'oi}? Then how one would understand >>>> what this {la'oi} means? >>>> >>> >>> Simply teach that it's not Lojban. Even doing it, the learner will find >>> it in jbovlaste, and understand the usage. >>> >> >> Definition in jbovlaste are usually cryptic and the website currently >> lacks satisfactory tools to show examples. >> Maybe instead add a notice that {la'oi} is ... I don't know what >> adjective to use so that it can suit you. "not mainstream", "used by som= e >> people"? The section already has the section "usage is problematic". >> >> Also I not precisely explained how my course is to be used. So I >> clarified the very first paragraph explaining the algorithm of using the >> course. To use one is supposed to provide feedback. Other usage is not >> approved. >> >> I understand that readers in past could understand this course as a stil= l >> finalized book despite warnings that it was a draft. >> >> > It's rather desirable that definition in jbovlaste is cryptic, and the > examples are not very reachable. New learners would avoid using {la'oi}, = or > supporters of {la'oi} would give a learnable non-official page of {la'oi}= . > Both are out of teacher's mission. > So I'll then add it to the dictionary in the appendix. > > >> >>> >>> >>>> 3. People are using {la'oi}. I don't understand how {la'oi} breaks CLL= . >>>> This particle is backward compatible. What problems are you having wit= h it? >>>> I can only see that for you {la'oi} is not neutral towards Polynesian >>>> languages. But we already know that Lojban is not neutral. Why are you >>>> accusing me of teaching it? The little blame gets all the blame? The s= ame >>>> as before. If one does nothing 'ey can't be blaimed. Is this what is >>>> desired? >>>> >>> >>> It breaks CLL 1.1 by forcing learners cultural non-neutrality. As for >>> the correctness of CLL, use bpfk list: >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/5_SDz58KJAw/discussion >>> >>> >>> >>>> 4. I don't understand what does mean "abusing a statement in NU >>>> clause"? Using {nu} where {du'u} is to be used? It's from xorxe's Alic= e. If >>>> there is some underformalization going on I don't have time to resolve= it >>>> when everything is working anyways. >>>> >>>> >>> No, I simply meant syntactic form "NU statement (KEI)", which require >>> some KEI non-elidible more than camxes. You abused also my parser parse= s >>> differently from camxes as follows: >>> >>> ([{ro BOI} {mo } KU] VAU) >>> >>> ([{ mo KU} {cu VAU}] IAU) >>> >>> ([{ mo KU} {ge GIhI}] IAU) >>> >>> You did then said "ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau", which >>> implies that you expelled me from so-called Lojbanistan. >>> >> >> Oh, hm. Now I see. But that reasoning also implies that I expelled mysel= f >> too .o'u. >> > > You don't understand the proof. You speak IRC dialects, then it does not > imply that you expelled yourself. > I mean I wrote parsers with the grammar different from the one in the CLL appendix. > Why don't you follow a primary course of Logic before teaching Lojban? > The same reason why I, not more proficient people worked on mw.lojban.org wiki from the beginning. Because no one else simply volunteers. > >> >> >>> >>> You didn't mention that your parser for your course "camxes-exp" parses >>> cmevla as tanru unit: it is already backward incompatible to camxes. It= is >>> another evidence of your double standard. >>> >> >> Indeed, it's a mistake to be corrected. I will change to a better parser >> in future but currently I lack free time. It's not double standard. I >> simply can't do the work for everyone. >> >> >> I also wish you sent feedback directly to me as the course asks, not >> collect some evidence as my own opinion. >> I'm only a collector and a teacher, not a designer of languages. >> >> > You are also an expeller of me and a de-selector of un-pleasant-to-you > features. > I can't comment on this. I don't know what you are talking about. As before, if you think a project isn't moving forward you are free to start your own project. Provide alternatives! > I recommend you not to teach any new features before admitted by BPFK. > Don't collect the unofficial features but obey BPFK. It is reasonable if > you add new features after admission of BPFK. > ok > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11467c4cd590720527540112 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-20 14:45 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:


Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cem= bre 2015 11:12:28 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


2015-12-20 13:55 GMT+03:00 <jacfold...@gmail.com>:


Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 10:13:29 UTC, la gleki = a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


2015-12-20 12:32 GMT+03:00= guskant <gusni...@gmail.com&g= t;:


Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08= :57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
<= br>
=C2=A0
I'm int= olerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers are merely a p= laytoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it.
Changing Lojban = is breaking its community which already happened once in 2004.
It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversib= ly incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as if the= language is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if thi= s is going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over= even more backward incompatible changes.

<= /div>

Teaching {la'oi} in y= our course and abusing a statement in NU clause: what a double standard of = you! It's you who broke so-called Lojbanistan by expelling me.=C2=A0

1. I didn't expel you. I'm just documenting what people are = using. As I said I perceive the situation as starting the language from scr= atch. But when some person says "let's drop this usage" it= 9;s breaking communication.=C2=A0
=
You did. See the proof in the page of URL above.

I don't understand that page, sorry. = At all :( Don't understand reasoning, just nothing. You may try discuss= ing it with other people.=C2=A0
<= div>=C2=A0
2. Am I supposed not to teach {la'oi= }? Then how one would understand what this {la'oi} means?

Simply teach that it'= s not Lojban. Even doing it, the learner will find it in jbovlaste, and und= erstand the usage.

Definition in jbov= laste are usually cryptic and the website currently lacks satisfactory tool= s to show examples.
Maybe instead add a notice that {la'oi} i= s ...=C2=A0 I don't know what adjective to use so that it can suit you.= "not mainstream", "used by some people"? The section a= lready has the section "usage is problematic".

Also I not precisely explained how my course is to be used. So I cla= rified the very first paragraph explaining the algorithm of using the cours= e. To use one is supposed to provide feedback. Other usage is not approved.=

I understand that readers in past could understan= d this course as a still finalized book despite warnings that it was a draf= t.


=C2=A0It's rather desirable that definition in jbovlaste is crypt= ic, and the examples are not very reachable. New learners would avoid using= {la'oi}, or supporters of {la'oi} would give a learnable non-offic= ial page of {la'oi}. Both are out of teacher's mission.

So I'll then add it to the dictionary in the= appendix.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
3. People = are using {la'oi}. I don't understand how {la'oi} breaks CLL. T= his particle is backward compatible. What problems are you having with it? = I can only see that for you {la'oi} is not neutral towards Polynesian l= anguages. But we already know that Lojban is not neutral. Why are you accus= ing me of teaching it? The little blame gets all the blame? The same as bef= ore. If one does nothing 'ey can't be blaimed. Is this what is desi= red?

It brea= ks CLL 1.1 by forcing learners cultural non-neutrality. As for the correctn= ess of CLL, use bpfk list:

=C2=A0
4. I don'= ;t understand what does mean "abusing a statement in NU clause"? = Using {nu} where {du'u} is to be used? It's from xorxe's Alice.= If there is some underformalization going on I don't have time to reso= lve it when everything is working anyways.


No, I simply meant syntac= tic form "NU statement (KEI)", which require some KEI non-elidibl= e more than camxes. You abused also my parser parses differently from camxe= s as follows:

([{ro BOI} {mo <ge mo (=C2= =B9gi mo=C2=B9) GIhI>} KU] VAU)=C2=A0

([{<ro= BOI> mo KU} {cu <ge mo (=C2=B9gi mo=C2=B9) GIhI> VAU}] IAU)=C2=A0=

([{<ro BOI> mo KU} {ge <cu (=C2=B9mo VAU= =C2=B9)> <gi (=C2=B9CU [mo VAU]=C2=B9)> GIhI}] IAU)=C2=A0

You did then said "j= a'o lo=C2=A0guskanbau=C2= =A0cu banzu frica lo jbobau", which implies that you expelled me from = so-called Lojbanistan.

Oh, hm.= Now I see. But that reasoning also implies that I expelled myself too .o&#= 39;u.

You do= n't understand the proof. You speak IRC dialects, =C2=A0then it does no= t imply that you expelled yourself.

I= mean I wrote parsers with the grammar different from the one in the CLL ap= pendix.
=C2=A0
Why don&= #39;t you follow a primary course of Logic before teaching Lojban?

The same reason why I, not more proficient pe= ople worked on mw.lojban.org wiki from= the beginning.
Because no one else simply volunteers.
=
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0

You didn't mention that y= our parser for your course "camxes-exp" parses cmevla as tanru un= it: it is already backward incompatible to camxes. It is another evidence o= f your double standard.

Indeed= , it's a mistake to be corrected. I will change to a better parser in f= uture but currently I lack free time. It's not double standard. I simpl= y can't do the work for everyone.
=C2=A0

=
I also wish you sent feedback directly to me as the course asks, not c= ollect some evidence as my own opinion.
I'm only a collector = and a teacher, not a designer of languages.


You are also an expeller of me and a de= -selector of un-pleasant-to-you features.=C2=A0

=
I can't comment on this. I don't know what you are talki= ng about.
As before, if you think a project isn't moving forw= ard you are free to start your own project.
Provide alternatives!=


I r= ecommend you not to teach any new features before admitted by BPFK. Don'= ;t collect the unofficial features but obey BPFK. It is reasonable if you a= dd new features after admission of BPFK.=C2=A0

<= /div>
ok
=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11467c4cd590720527540112--