Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 01:24:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew <summerfallsaway@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAJHgu=_a1eGoxT9u2=wiwDDHuXrniRiZK8=7kFxCe_6k1pTgQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de>
 <CAJHgu=_a1eGoxT9u2=wiwDDHuXrniRiZK8=7kFxCe_6k1pTgQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs
 clearer, more detailed entries
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la gleki:
> ...start your own Lojban dictionary in your own dialect of English...

I don't really have a problem with the dialect. I'm saying there's simply 
not enough information.

la stela:
> .i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku'i frili fa lo nu finti lo cnino

I don't think we necessarily need to change the *meaning* of existing 
words, we just need to revise or rewrite the dictionary entries so that the 
meaning is clearer. The meaning of the gismu are probably fine, as far as I 
know. The way we *explain* the meaning needs work.

Specifically, I'd like to see an explanation of the meaning and possible 
usage notes for all the sumti of each brivla. It's not enough to know just 
the main gloss word for a brivla: One must also understand what would be 
appropriate and what would be inappropriate to use as the x1 or x2 or x3... 
of a given brivla.

When necessary, there should also be notes about the ways a brivla differs 
from its English gloss word. For example, I have heard some (I think it 
might have been la gleki?) suggest that "picture" is an insufficient 
explanation for the concept of {pixra}, because in English, "picture" 
connotes a 2D image, while {pixra} could work just as well for 3D objects.

la selpa'i:
> At least now, compared to two 
years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a 
thing, so we really only need to ... just do it. 

What would it take to get this started? Is there anything I could do to 
help?

I think this is important enough to start work as soon as possible -- but 
it doesn't have to be done all at once. We could just have regular 
discussions in IRC, or here in the mailing list, about how best to explain 
the semantics of a single valsi.

Or however you think is best.


On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:39:31 AM UTC-8, la stela selckiku 
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:03 AM, selpahi <sel...@gmx.de <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > Many of us hope that work on the gismu list will pick up again at some 
> > point, but nobody knows when that will be. At least now, compared to two 
> > years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a 
> thing, 
> > so we really only need to ... just do it. 
>
> .i gasnu ma sa'e .i va'i ma tadji lo nuntu'i 
>
> .i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku'i frili fa lo nu finti lo 
> cnino .i .e'u pa moi se zukte fa lo nu finti lo zi'evla poi lo jai se 
> djica cu smuni ke'a .i mu'a finti zo fenkire noi ca'e ru'e .ivla me'o 
> fa bu lo remna ku'o je zo fenkinu noi ca'e ru'e .ivla me'o fa bu lo 
> fasnu .i ka'e co'a pilno lo ve tugni se smuni .i ji'a ka'e zmadu frili 
> fa lo nu tavla fi lo smuni be lo laldo poi gismu .i mu'a pau cu'i 
> smuni zo fenki .ei fa lo ka fenkinu ji fenkire 
>
> .i .au ru'e lo gimste cu binxo lo racli cnino .i .au sai pilno lo ji'a 
> drata be lo laldo poi jbogi'u 
>
> .i pe'i pe'i pei filmau fa lo da'i nu finti lo cnino .i mi na djica lo 
> bebna nu xusra lo du'u nandu fa lo nu pante .i ro roi frili fa lo nu 
> pante .i ku'i mleca pante tcini vau la'a .a'o .i je da'i zdile mi fa 
> lo nu lo cnino co'a jbovla 
>
> mi'e la stela selckiku 
> mu'o lo jbobyjbopre 
> fa'o 
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">la gleki:<br>&gt; ...start your own Lojban dictionary in y=
our own dialect of English...<br><br>I don&#39;t really have a problem with=
 the dialect.  I&#39;m saying there&#39;s simply not enough information.<br=
><br>la stela:<br>&gt; .i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku&#39;i fril=
i fa lo nu finti lo
cnino<br><br>I don&#39;t think we necessarily need to change the *meaning* =
of existing words, we just need to revise or rewrite the dictionary entries=
 so that the meaning is clearer. The meaning of the gismu are probably fine=
, as far as I know. The way we *explain* the meaning needs work.<br><br>Spe=
cifically, I&#39;d like to see an explanation of the meaning and possible u=
sage notes for all the sumti of each brivla. It&#39;s not enough to know ju=
st the main gloss word for a brivla: One must also understand what would be=
 appropriate and what would be inappropriate to use as the x1 or x2 or x3..=
. of a given brivla.<br><br>When necessary, there should also be notes abou=
t the ways a brivla differs from its English gloss word. For example, I hav=
e heard some (I think it might have been la gleki?) suggest that &quot;pict=
ure&quot; is an insufficient explanation for the concept of {pixra}, becaus=
e in English, &quot;picture&quot; connotes a 2D image, while {pixra} could =
work just as well for 3D objects.<br><br>la selpa&#39;i:<br>&gt; At least n=
ow, compared to two=20
<br>years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a=20
<br>thing, so we really only need to ... just do it.
<br><br>What would it take to get this started? Is there anything I could d=
o to help?<br><br>I think this is important enough to start work as soon as=
 possible -- but it doesn&#39;t have to be done all at once. We could just =
have regular discussions in IRC, or here in the mailing list, about how bes=
t to explain the semantics of a single valsi.<br><br>Or however you think i=
s best.<br><br><br>On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:39:31 AM UTC-8, la =
stela selckiku wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;m=
argin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Wed, J=
an 20, 2016 at 8:03 AM, selpahi &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blan=
k" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"k8bAY9rcCQAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"t=
his.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;=
javascript:&#39;;return true;">sel...@gmx.de</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Many of us hope that work on the gismu list will pick up again at =
some
<br>&gt; point, but nobody knows when that will be. At least now, compared =
to two
<br>&gt; years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such =
a thing,
<br>&gt; so we really only need to ... just do it.
<br>
<br>.i gasnu ma sa&#39;e .i va&#39;i ma tadji lo nuntu&#39;i
<br>
<br>.i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku&#39;i frili fa lo nu finti lo
<br>cnino .i .e&#39;u pa moi se zukte fa lo nu finti lo zi&#39;evla poi lo =
jai se
<br>djica cu smuni ke&#39;a .i mu&#39;a finti zo fenkire noi ca&#39;e ru=
9;e .ivla me&#39;o
<br>fa bu lo remna ku&#39;o je zo fenkinu noi ca&#39;e ru&#39;e .ivla me=
9;o fa bu lo
<br>fasnu .i ka&#39;e co&#39;a pilno lo ve tugni se smuni .i ji&#39;a ka=
9;e zmadu frili
<br>fa lo nu tavla fi lo smuni be lo laldo poi gismu .i mu&#39;a pau cu&#39=
;i
<br>smuni zo fenki .ei fa lo ka fenkinu ji fenkire
<br>
<br>.i .au ru&#39;e lo gimste cu binxo lo racli cnino .i .au sai pilno lo j=
i&#39;a
<br>drata be lo laldo poi jbogi&#39;u
<br>
<br>.i pe&#39;i pe&#39;i pei filmau fa lo da&#39;i nu finti lo cnino .i mi =
na djica lo
<br>bebna nu xusra lo du&#39;u nandu fa lo nu pante .i ro roi frili fa lo n=
u
<br>pante .i ku&#39;i mleca pante tcini vau la&#39;a .a&#39;o .i je da&#39;=
i zdile mi fa
<br>lo nu lo cnino co&#39;a jbovla
<br>
<br>mi&#39;e la stela selckiku
<br>mu&#39;o lo jbobyjbopre
<br>fa&#39;o
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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