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From: Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs
 clearer, more detailed entries
Thread-Topic: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs
 clearer, more detailed entries
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I would be happy to help in quality assurance for a Lojban dictionary impro=
vement project. I don't have in-depth understanding of Lojban yet so it wou=
ld simultaneously help me learn vocabulary.


I would suggest that:

  1.  a desired template for definition completeness be established
  2.  a mechanism for users to report incomplete or inadequate definitions =
be added (if not already in place)
  3.  an ongoing prioritisation of definition improvements based on the col=
lated feedback in the point above
  4.  a process be established to revise a few words every week to 100% com=
pletion of the template

Sorry if any suggestion is already implemented. I also didn't get to read t=
he full context on this email chain.


My presumption was that the dictionary was intended to be prescriptive, not=
 descriptive as per other dictionaries, but I may be wrong. I'm just trying=
 to get involved in Lojban.


mi'e la.timoteios.

________________________________
From: lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew=
 <summerfallsaway@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 21 January 2016 7:24 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs =
clearer, more detailed entries

la gleki:
> ...start your own Lojban dictionary in your own dialect of English...

I don't really have a problem with the dialect. I'm saying there's simply n=
ot enough information.

la stela:
> .i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku'i frili fa lo nu finti lo cnino

I don't think we necessarily need to change the *meaning* of existing words=
, we just need to revise or rewrite the dictionary entries so that the mean=
ing is clearer. The meaning of the gismu are probably fine, as far as I kno=
w. The way we *explain* the meaning needs work.

Specifically, I'd like to see an explanation of the meaning and possible us=
age notes for all the sumti of each brivla. It's not enough to know just th=
e main gloss word for a brivla: One must also understand what would be appr=
opriate and what would be inappropriate to use as the x1 or x2 or x3... of =
a given brivla.

When necessary, there should also be notes about the ways a brivla differs =
from its English gloss word. For example, I have heard some (I think it mig=
ht have been la gleki?) suggest that "picture" is an insufficient explanati=
on for the concept of {pixra}, because in English, "picture" connotes a 2D =
image, while {pixra} could work just as well for 3D objects.

la selpa'i:
> At least now, compared to two
years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a
thing, so we really only need to ... just do it.

What would it take to get this started? Is there anything I could do to hel=
p?

I think this is important enough to start work as soon as possible -- but i=
t doesn't have to be done all at once. We could just have regular discussio=
ns in IRC, or here in the mailing list, about how best to explain the seman=
tics of a single valsi.

Or however you think is best.


On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:39:31 AM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrot=
e:
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:03 AM, selpahi <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Many of us hope that work on the gismu list will pick up again at some
> point, but nobody knows when that will be. At least now, compared to two
> years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a thing=
,
> so we really only need to ... just do it.

.i gasnu ma sa'e .i va'i ma tadji lo nuntu'i

.i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku'i frili fa lo nu finti lo
cnino .i .e'u pa moi se zukte fa lo nu finti lo zi'evla poi lo jai se
djica cu smuni ke'a .i mu'a finti zo fenkire noi ca'e ru'e .ivla me'o
fa bu lo remna ku'o je zo fenkinu noi ca'e ru'e .ivla me'o fa bu lo
fasnu .i ka'e co'a pilno lo ve tugni se smuni .i ji'a ka'e zmadu frili
fa lo nu tavla fi lo smuni be lo laldo poi gismu .i mu'a pau cu'i
smuni zo fenki .ei fa lo ka fenkinu ji fenkire

.i .au ru'e lo gimste cu binxo lo racli cnino .i .au sai pilno lo ji'a
drata be lo laldo poi jbogi'u

.i pe'i pe'i pei filmau fa lo da'i nu finti lo cnino .i mi na djica lo
bebna nu xusra lo du'u nandu fa lo nu pante .i ro roi frili fa lo nu
pante .i ku'i mleca pante tcini vau la'a .a'o .i je da'i zdile mi fa
lo nu lo cnino co'a jbovla

mi'e la stela selckiku
mu'o lo jbobyjbopre
fa'o

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
n-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;back=
ground-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>I would be happy to help in quality assurance for a Lojban&nbsp;dictiona=
ry improvement project. I don't have in-depth understanding of Lojban yet s=
o it would simultaneously help me learn vocabulary.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I would suggest that:</p>
<ol>
<li>a desired template for definition completeness be established</li><li>a=
 mechanism for users to report incomplete or inadequate definitions be adde=
d (if not already in place)<br>
</li><li>an ongoing prioritisation of definition improvements based on the =
collated feedback in the point above<br>
</li><li>a process be established to revise a few words every week to 100% =
completion of the template</li></ol>
<p>Sorry if any suggestion is already implemented. I also didn't get to rea=
d the full context on this email chain.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>My presumption was that the dictionary was intended to be prescriptive, =
not descriptive as per other dictionaries, but I may be wrong. I'm just try=
ing to get involved in Lojban.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>mi'e la.timoteios.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> lojban@googlegroups=
.com &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of Andrew &lt;summerfallsawa=
y@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 21 January 2016 7:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary=
 needs clearer, more detailed entries</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">la gleki:<br>
&gt; ...start your own Lojban dictionary in your own dialect of English...<=
br>
<br>
I don't really have a problem with the dialect. I'm saying there's simply n=
ot enough information.<br>
<br>
la stela:<br>
&gt; .i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku'i frili fa lo nu finti lo cn=
ino<br>
<br>
I don't think we necessarily need to change the *meaning* of existing words=
, we just need to revise or rewrite the dictionary entries so that the mean=
ing is clearer. The meaning of the gismu are probably fine, as far as I kno=
w. The way we *explain* the meaning
 needs work.<br>
<br>
Specifically, I'd like to see an explanation of the meaning and possible us=
age notes for all the sumti of each brivla. It's not enough to know just th=
e main gloss word for a brivla: One must also understand what would be appr=
opriate and what would be inappropriate
 to use as the x1 or x2 or x3... of a given brivla.<br>
<br>
When necessary, there should also be notes about the ways a brivla differs =
from its English gloss word. For example, I have heard some (I think it mig=
ht have been la gleki?) suggest that &quot;picture&quot; is an insufficient=
 explanation for the concept of {pixra}, because
 in English, &quot;picture&quot; connotes a 2D image, while {pixra} could w=
ork just as well for 3D objects.<br>
<br>
la selpa'i:<br>
&gt; At least now, compared to two <br>
years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a <br>
thing, so we really only need to ... just do it. <br>
<br>
What would it take to get this started? Is there anything I could do to hel=
p?<br>
<br>
I think this is important enough to start work as soon as possible -- but i=
t doesn't have to be done all at once. We could just have regular discussio=
ns in IRC, or here in the mailing list, about how best to explain the seman=
tics of a single valsi.<br>
<br>
Or however you think is best.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:39:31 AM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrot=
e:
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0; margin-left:0.8ex; bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:03 AM, selpahi &lt;<a id=3D"LPlnk249760" href=3D"=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">sel...@gmx.de</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Many of us hope that work on the gismu list will pick up again at some=
 <br>
&gt; point, but nobody knows when that will be. At least now, compared to t=
wo <br>
&gt; years ago, BPFK has the official backing of LLG to undertake such a th=
ing, <br>
&gt; so we really only need to ... just do it. <br>
<br>
.i gasnu ma sa'e .i va'i ma tadji lo nuntu'i <br>
<br>
.i nandu fa lo nu valsi smuni galfi .i ku'i frili fa lo nu finti lo <br>
cnino .i .e'u pa moi se zukte fa lo nu finti lo zi'evla poi lo jai se <br>
djica cu smuni ke'a .i mu'a finti zo fenkire noi ca'e ru'e .ivla me'o <br>
fa bu lo remna ku'o je zo fenkinu noi ca'e ru'e .ivla me'o fa bu lo <br>
fasnu .i ka'e co'a pilno lo ve tugni se smuni .i ji'a ka'e zmadu frili <br>
fa lo nu tavla fi lo smuni be lo laldo poi gismu .i mu'a pau cu'i <br>
smuni zo fenki .ei fa lo ka fenkinu ji fenkire <br>
<br>
.i .au ru'e lo gimste cu binxo lo racli cnino .i .au sai pilno lo ji'a <br>
drata be lo laldo poi jbogi'u <br>
<br>
.i pe'i pe'i pei filmau fa lo da'i nu finti lo cnino .i mi na djica lo <br>
bebna nu xusra lo du'u nandu fa lo nu pante .i ro roi frili fa lo nu <br>
pante .i ku'i mleca pante tcini vau la'a .a'o .i je da'i zdile mi fa <br>
lo nu lo cnino co'a jbovla <br>
<br>
mi'e la stela selckiku <br>
mu'o lo jbobyjbopre <br>
fa'o <br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p></p>
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