Received: from mail-io0-f186.google.com ([209.85.223.186]:32994) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aO9IC-0007Cv-D8 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:48 -0800 Received: by mail-io0-f186.google.com with SMTP id j13sf49697324ioe.0 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=kdUsZf1Ya4ZrTYx1QgQnllfm2+ymycCGDSc3yoH38zc=; b=pCoDuxxsjBsrV1Ki+KPrD4OqFz8F+7v1MUvtKpCnEdmvjtdXeOeHhrBelB2htX2Oxd xJlUfI+3YOtI+x3RPh4gi4QaVsJX3bCXWyN/iW7jgYtfWbu1SEoWpbFiE+stoKJb1+19 qmIchgVCyoNraCQrk4rTkINSIXjuq46ja/sAyNgrHL7bw+wam4iWpmmMpJMAmiIYvTDp cIxdLtasBkUC9HsT6zu/TaG2Mf1Fuigx7UP0qPDMeEJf6494OBBE6SmPq4Vw1gyUiLTS 9Vea5sfv+Rer/mnV5VgLj0dbcb1KhTJFUWcUdqq2IcQen8vVs9kdIesK2nQlt4nkqV9y tAQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=kdUsZf1Ya4ZrTYx1QgQnllfm2+ymycCGDSc3yoH38zc=; b=bJG9XU9zSiKCF+UnktfRh9kiuEy+x1IdD3heKacIuOjACYulaq/io7O6uoYjCXMHLn 1+TceE/Q4RRTW1YZnRaJu+/robA/SffjROstyWL8Gesucm/H/r0g7qAQL48aSqFyaLuP TRFn+wYbB8kVSUtjLmHhQNCOY9pxIRlEQOgvZP1ooEgi3R171dm6Q7pobi3qDzqfAZ/a wZtYZ5e+/GlAu95cRN7erZnddqKfOoeSIe3XN9oouDqOBqiOI1dTyIuX3+hR0y0QUgaI FAPuKx8qcRA+JJSm6VwqrzKKj9QNTJoYZ1v/TiEe+P+6+88BGuZ0/pN2kEEYEe7IlOV9 yHDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOSxNCMTTeQbtEW7rO3AcQCP2IMMcvwdliWktxLfMHNcGdX8myk/3idaV1b5Z5GahA== X-Received: by 10.50.44.18 with SMTP id a18mr144505igm.4.1453836518546; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.66.148 with SMTP id f20ls1259576igt.2.canary; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.98.93.84 with SMTP id r81mr23578544pfb.4.1453836518078; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kr4si714357igb.0.2016.01.26.11.28.38 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f; Received: by mail-ig0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id t15so66841993igr.0 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.183.37 with SMTP id ej5mr23645009igc.48.1453836517876; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.47.101 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:28:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 14:28:37 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIMKrcG8ndcK7ICYgbWFsZ2xpY28=?= From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135e15435adf0052a41b15e X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1135e15435adf0052a41b15e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u lo tirxu} doesn't actually add any real information that {la teris noi tirxu} doesn't. This comes up again and again: Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English is innately very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it seems to get progressively nounier and nounier. mi'e la latro'a mu'o On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote: > co=E1=BB=8B ro do > I've noticed that ga'a mi many uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very malglico= -ish; sa'e > mu'a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu=C2=BB se= ems to have > words are calqued, one by one, i.e. > >> *=E2=80=8B=C2=AB*la teris.=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *Terry* >> > > =C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *who is* >> >> =E2=80=8B('well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see *3*)=E2=80= =8B >> > =E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *a tiger*=E2=80=8B (and it would = be worse, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB) >> > =E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin the article of the .=C5=ADitki, *Profanit= y* *=C2=B01* (that's where > I actually noticed it all): > >> You may also make use of >> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >> do po'u >> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >> to start a phrase meaning *You bastard, bitch*, etc. The particle >> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >> po'u >> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >> roughly translates to >> =E2=80=8B *=E2=80=8B* >> *the*, as in >> *=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BSonic the Hedgehog*. > > pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here: > *1*. Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2=BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), wher= e it's not needed, just like > in English with *be*; > *2*. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally superfluous and even long= er (!) =E2=80=93 > we think of Terry, some tiger, and assert they're the same: that doesn't > really make sense!; > *3*. Using a restrictive relative/identity clause. > =E2=80=8BAs for *3*, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, which= Terry it is by > referring by his name, because we're telling the story!=E2=80=93 so it de= serves the > use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2=ABdo no=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB wou= ld fit in here, and if I ever start > saying =C2=ABle broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because then I= 'd use =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to > clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB as well. > ta'o, the non-CLL version of that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABla .t= eris. > no=E1=BB=8B tigra=C2=BB. > What do you think? > le'o cu'i > mi'e la .uakci mu'o > > *=C2=B01* https://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1135e15435adf0052a41b15e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'= u lo tirxu} doesn't actually add any real information that {la teris no= i tirxu} doesn't. This comes up again and again: Lojban really "wa= nts" to be verby, English is innately very nouny, and as English speak= ers use Lojban, it seems to get progressively nounier and nounier.

<= /div>mi'e la latro'a mu'o
<= br>
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasi= ewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:
co=E1=BB=8B ro do
I've noticed = that ga'a mi many uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very malglico-ish;= =C2=A0sa'e mu'a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'= o le barda tcadu=C2=BB seems to have words are calqued, one by one, i.e.
=E2=80=8B=C2= =ABla teris.=C2=BB =E2=80=93 Terry
=C2=A0
=C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u= =C2=BB =E2=80=93 who is
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B('well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see= 3)=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 a tiger= =E2=80=8B (and it would be worse, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB)
=E2=80=8BSame thi= ng =E2=80=8Bin the article of the .=C5=ADitki, Profanity=C2=A0=C2= =B01=C2=A0(that's where I actually noticed it all):
You may also make use of=
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
do po= 'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
= to start a phrase meaning You bastard, bitch, etc. The particle =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
po'u<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:'times new roman',= serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
roughl= y translates to
=E2=80=8B =E2=80= =8B
the, as in
= =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
Sonic the Hedgehog.
pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issu= es in here:
1= . Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2=BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), where it&= #39;s not needed, just like in English with be;
2. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, wh= ere it's totally superfluous and even longer (!) =E2=80=93 we think of = Terry, some tiger, and assert they're the same: that doesn't really= make sense!;
3. Using a restrictive relative/identity clause.
=E2=80=8BAs for 3, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, t= hen we know, which Terry it is by referring by his name, because we're = telling the story!=E2=80=93 so it deserves the use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2= =BB. Similarly, =C2=ABdo no=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB would fit in here, and if I ever= start saying =C2=ABle broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because t= hen I'd use =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to clarify), I'd continue with = =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB as well.
ta'o, the= non-CLL version of that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABla .teris. no=E1= =BB=8B tigra=C2=BB.
What do you think?
le'o cu'i
mi'e la .uakci mu'= o

= =C2=B01=C2=A0https://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1135e15435adf0052a41b15e--