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[2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k2si109459lbs.3.2016.01.26.11.36.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a; Received: by mail-lb0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id bc4so98004236lbc.2 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:36:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.125.198 with SMTP id ms6mr9541188lbb.106.1453836975268; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.159.36 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:36:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:36:15 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIMKrcG8ndcK7ICYgbWFsZ2xpY28=?= From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01161a9478ec7f052a41cca5 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --089e01161a9478ec7f052a41cca5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable coi la latro'a Thank you for your reply. I thought it's some sort of idiomatic in Lojban to use =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB this way, but I doubted it. Now I know. .ui mi'e la .uakci mu'o On 26 January 2016 at 20:28, Ian Johnson wrote: > It's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u lo tirxu} doesn't actually > add any real information that {la teris noi tirxu} doesn't. This comes up > again and again: Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English is innately > very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it seems to get > progressively nounier and nounier. > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz > wrote: > >> co=E1=BB=8B ro do >> I've noticed that ga'a mi many uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very malglic= o-ish; sa'e >> mu'a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu=C2=BB s= eems to have >> words are calqued, one by one, i.e. >> >>> *=E2=80=8B=C2=AB*la teris.=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *Terry* >>> >> >> =C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *who is* >>> >>> =E2=80=8B('well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see *3*)=E2= =80=8B >>> >> =E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *a tiger*=E2=80=8B (and it would= be worse, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB) >>> >> =E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin the article of the .=C5=ADitki, *Profani= ty* *=C2=B01* (that's >> where I actually noticed it all): >> >>> You may also make use of >>> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >>> do po'u >>> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >>> to start a phrase meaning *You bastard, bitch*, etc. The particle >>> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >>> po'u >>> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >>> roughly translates to >>> =E2=80=8B *=E2=80=8B* >>> *the*, as in >>> *=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BSonic the Hedgehog*. >> >> pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here: >> *1*. Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2=BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), whe= re it's not needed, just >> like in English with *be*; >> *2*. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally superfluous and even lon= ger (!) =E2=80=93 >> we think of Terry, some tiger, and assert they're the same: that doesn't >> really make sense!; >> *3*. Using a restrictive relative/identity clause. >> =E2=80=8BAs for *3*, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, whic= h Terry it is by >> referring by his name, because we're telling the story!=E2=80=93 so it d= eserves the >> use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2=ABdo no=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB wo= uld fit in here, and if I ever start >> saying =C2=ABle broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because then = I'd use =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to >> clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB as well. >> ta'o, the non-CLL version of that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABla .= teris. >> no=E1=BB=8B tigra=C2=BB. >> What do you think? >> le'o cu'i >> mi'e la .uakci mu'o >> >> *=C2=B01* https://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e01161a9478ec7f052a41cca5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
coi la latro'a
Thank you for your reply. I thought it's some = sort of idiomatic in Lojban to use =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB this way, but I dou= bted it. Now I know. .ui
mi'= e la .uakci mu'o

On 26 January 2016 at 20:28, Ian Johnson <blind= bravado@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
It's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u= lo tirxu} doesn't actually add any real information that {la teris noi= tirxu} doesn't. This comes up again and again: Lojban really "wan= ts" to be verby, English is innately very nouny, and as English speake= rs use Lojban, it seems to get progressively nounier and nounier.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at= 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:=
co=E1=BB=8B ro = do
I've noticed that ga'a mi ma= ny uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very malglico-ish;=C2=A0sa'e mu'= ;a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu=C2= =BB seems to have words are calqued, one by one, i.e.
=E2=80=8B=C2=ABla teris.=C2= =BB =E2=80=93 Terry
=C2=A0
=C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93 = who is
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B('= ;well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see 3)=E2=80=8B<= /div>
= =E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 a tiger=E2=80=8B (and it wou= ld be worse, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB)
=E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin the ar= ticle of the .=C5=ADitki, Profanity=C2=A0=C2=B01=C2=A0(that&#= 39;s where I actually noticed it all):
You may also make use of
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
do po'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
to start a phrase me= aning You bastard, bitch, etc. The particle
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
po'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
roughly translates to
=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B
the= , as in
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
S= onic the Hedgehog.
pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here:
1. Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2= =BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), where it's not needed, just = like in English with be;
2. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally su= perfluous and even longer (!) =E2=80=93 we think of Terry, some tiger, and = assert they're the same: that doesn't really make sense!;
3. Using a restrictive= relative/identity clause.
=E2=80= =8BAs for 3, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, which Te= rry it is by referring by his name, because we're telling the story!=E2= =80=93 so it deserves the use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2=AB= do no=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB would fit in here, and if I ever start saying =C2=ABle= broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because then I'd use =C2=AB= po=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2= =BB as well.
ta'o, the non-CLL version of = that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABla .teris. no=E1=BB=8B tigra=C2=BB.<= /div>
What do you think?
le'o cu'i
mi'e la .uakci mu'o

=C2=B01=C2=A0https://mw= .lojban.org/papri/profanity

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