Received: from mail-qk0-f185.google.com ([209.85.220.185]:33444) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aO9h3-0000qr-LP for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:29 -0800 Received: by mail-qk0-f185.google.com with SMTP id e124sf48739939qkc.0 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=DCv2iKAAZgxumvt50FlbBI6LFrOCc08iMxhdnFidDk0=; b=AgZrp4ykEq1We8o2LmGo0LadwdFWCtubk1PlDr5ijD///ICkbKT1hM8xWoiVqPFKGD QSvqLHToShugBJJ0nXwTRNkzgmGtZs25KNcYHAVqM8MBLGVqJidb+R8MhgJlc7XYjgCc dzX8OYxxa/29N4Brr+vjB+e+tYr20d6ikrD52618hZdjHoB7o4iCjAyAe+kmUOQZbnUx e7tCvrlv4WyHVatTOQKB1Ma3+V3s6TIohK5KstlKuJ2mnK4yuM1v80PpqckMvUvdlgT6 CrXV5WF7qdhHvJCnwYCGyTHOVblKpct0MfR6/OJT3xW0CoJfsuj/GLrtYRCGMQeQbSYb CSmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=DCv2iKAAZgxumvt50FlbBI6LFrOCc08iMxhdnFidDk0=; b=DgkfOCyYwLRNDWo7fQqK7qVYeOrbf/13lLBkbbIm8HwfujSHEEyQci50heMhqELo8E tdzU420Wdqy+Eg3AoVweQkcDodwu2iW2BPxdu7fbMYrAwOcCmOCoYN909rm8DgnGqWC7 eEr1bDbcJBiRvWdEj9YG3ryXtqH3j7bWXaPVlJerMJQD8vRZxKaOIsN5M/QMVuipyBKI v9u9p9zuKLLpHezgeW2rbpF1wMHFxwxnQng5C3t62isSUJ0RXyO+TWK2iKqAx3eLhcJE 1WnZaeQMPDvzwbRJJ59u2BPfI55AWSw26rQw2IAkXG+lawDAGtWvFwC7Sisu/jtSFI76 L6MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQltw6dq4mihYA5/4r30+SXevzqCr1vMtlCFUruwaCnxTLVU+C0Z8DUGwadMYPPJg== X-Received: by 10.50.117.3 with SMTP id ka3mr627292igb.0.1453838059573; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.178.180 with SMTP id cz20ls335060igc.25.gmail; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.241.104 with SMTP id wh8mr23837063pac.44.1453838059188; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x236.google.com (mail-oi0-x236.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s18si264464igr.3.2016.01.26.11.54.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236; Received: by mail-oi0-x236.google.com with SMTP id p187so112021972oia.2 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.202.173.9 with SMTP id w9mr18075970oie.79.1453838058933; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:54:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.251.137 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:53:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Michael Turniansky Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 14:53:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIMKrcG8ndcK7ICYgbWFsZ2xpY28=?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ceffa1076c4052a420da7 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113ceffa1076c4052a420da7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As the author of the piece, let me defend myself by saying: 1) that was one of the earliest pieces I wrote. And yes, today, I would write "noi tirxu", and even here, I would say "no'u" rather than "po'u" because you are right, "la teris" should uniquely identify one being. My thinking was probably I wanted to differentiate this Terry from "Terry the firefighter" and "Terry the lemon tree". Nonetheless, it has been read and critiqued many times in the past decade, and no one has complained on that point until now, so I am not going to change the venerable text, despite my own change in viewpoint in the interim. 2) restrictive vs. identity aside, though, I don't think that "no'u lo tirxu" is any more "wrong" or less lobykai than "noi tirxu". Don't forget, that while lojban may not be oriented as its ancestor Loglan was vis-a-vis testing SWH, it still was deisgned to give one maximal flexibility in how one expresses things. And I chose to express it nounily 3) who is using "du" here? Not I. uanai --gejyspa On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote: > coi la stevo > >> *=E2=80=8BLojban really "wants" to verb, English innately nouns a lot, a= nd as >> English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressively noun more and >> more. =E2=80=8B* > > *Lojban style:* That which Lojbans-type-of-languages, muchs in wanting to > verb. And that which Englishes-type-of-languages, properties in muching i= n > nouning. That which Lojbans-type-of-languages, constants in > mores-type-of-becomes in nouning, results. > mi'e la .uakci mu'o > > On 26 January 2016 at 20:35, MorphemeAddict wrote: > >> (Playing with the ideas/words:) >> >> Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English is innately very nouny, and a= s >> English speakers use Lojban, it seems to get progressively nounier and >> nounier. >> >> Lojban really "wants" to verb, English innately nouns a lot, and as >> English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressively noun more and mor= e. >> >> stevo >> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Ian Johnson >> wrote: >> >>> It's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u lo tirxu} doesn't >>> actually add any real information that {la teris noi tirxu} doesn't. Th= is >>> comes up again and again: Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English is >>> innately very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it seems to ge= t >>> progressively nounier and nounier. >>> >>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz >> > wrote: >>> >>>> co=E1=BB=8B ro do >>>> I've noticed that ga'a mi many uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very >>>> malglico-ish; sa'e mu'a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o l= e barda >>>> tcadu=C2=BB seems to have words are calqued, one by one, i.e. >>>> >>>>> *=E2=80=8B=C2=AB*la teris.=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *Terry* >>>>> >>>> >>>> =C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *who is* >>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=8B('well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see *3*)=E2= =80=8B >>>>> >>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *a tiger*=E2=80=8B (and it wou= ld be worse, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB) >>>>> >>>> =E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin the article of the .=C5=ADitki, *Profa= nity* *=C2=B01* (that's >>>> where I actually noticed it all): >>>> >>>>> You may also make use of >>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >>>>> do po'u >>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >>>>> to start a phrase meaning *You bastard, bitch*, etc. The particle >>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >>>>> po'u >>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >>>>> roughly translates to >>>>> =E2=80=8B *=E2=80=8B* >>>>> *the*, as in >>>>> *=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BSonic the Hedgehog*. >>>> >>>> pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here: >>>> *1*. Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2=BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), w= here it's not needed, just >>>> like in English with *be*; >>>> *2*. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally superfluous and even l= onger (!) >>>> =E2=80=93 we think of Terry, some tiger, and assert they're the same: = that doesn't >>>> really make sense!; >>>> *3*. Using a restrictive relative/identity clause. >>>> =E2=80=8BAs for *3*, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, wh= ich Terry it is by >>>> referring by his name, because we're telling the story!=E2=80=93 so it= deserves the >>>> use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2=ABdo no=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB = would fit in here, and if I ever start >>>> saying =C2=ABle broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because the= n I'd use =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to >>>> clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB as well. >>>> ta'o, the non-CLL version of that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABla >>>> .teris. no=E1=BB=8B tigra=C2=BB. >>>> What do you think? >>>> le'o cu'i >>>> mi'e la .uakci mu'o >>>> >>>> *=C2=B01* https://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113ceffa1076c4052a420da7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 As the author of the piece, let me defend myself by= saying:

1) that was one of the earliest pieces I wrote.= =C2=A0 And yes, today, I would write "noi tirxu", and even here, = I would say "no'u" rather than "po'u" because y= ou are right, "la teris" should uniquely identify one being.=C2= =A0 My thinking was probably I wanted to differentiate this Terry from &quo= t;Terry the firefighter" and "Terry the lemon tree".=C2=A0 N= onetheless, it has been read and critiqued many times in the past decade, a= nd no one has complained on that point until now, so I am not going to chan= ge the venerable text, despite my own change in viewpoint in the interim.

2) restrictive vs. identity aside, though, I don= 9;t think that "no'u lo tirxu" is any more "wrong" = or less lobykai than "noi tirxu".=C2=A0 Don't forget, that wh= ile lojban may not be oriented as its ancestor Loglan was vis-a-vis testing= SWH, it still was deisgned to give one maximal flexibility in how one expr= esses things.=C2=A0 And I chose to express it nounily

<= div>3) =C2=A0who is using "du" here?=C2=A0 Not I. =C2=A0uanai

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gej= yspa


On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bruno Panasie= wicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:
coi la stevo
=E2=80=8B
Loj= ban really "wants" to verb, English innately nouns a lot, and as = English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressively noun more and more.= =C2=A0=E2=80=8B
Lojban style: T= hat which Lojbans-type-of-languages, muchs in wanting to verb. And that whi= ch Englishes-type-of-languages, properties in muching in nouning. That whic= h Lojbans-type-of-languages, constants in mores-type-of-becomes in nouning,= results.
mi'e la .uakci mu'o

On 26 January 2016 at 20:35, MorphemeAddict <= ;lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
(Playing= with the ideas/words:)

Lojban really "want= s" to be verby, English is innately very nouny, and as English speaker= s use Lojban, it seems to get progressively nounier and nounier.
=

Lojban really "wants" to verb, English innate= ly nouns a lot, and as English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressive= ly noun more and more.=C2=A0

stevo=C2=A0

On T= ue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
I= t's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u lo tirxu} doesn't= actually add any real information that {la teris noi tirxu} doesn't. T= his comes up again and again: Lojban really "wants" to be verby, = English is innately very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it seem= s to get progressively nounier and nounier.

mi'e la latro&= #39;a mu'o

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ci= uak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:
=
co=E1=BB= =8B ro do
I've noticed that ga'= a mi many uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very malglico-ish;=C2=A0sa'e= mu'a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tca= du=C2=BB seems to have words are calqued, one by one, i.e.
=E2=80=8B=C2=ABla teris= .=C2=BB =E2=80=93 Terry
=C2=A0
=C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93= who is
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B(= 'well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see 3)=E2=80= =8B
=E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 a tiger=E2=80=8B (and i= t would be worse, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB)
=E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin t= he article of the .=C5=ADitki, Profanity=C2=A0=C2=B01=C2=A0(t= hat's where I actually noticed it all):
You may also make use of
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
do po'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
to start a phra= se meaning You bastard, bitch, etc. The particle
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
po'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
roughly translates to<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:'times new roman',= serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B
th= e, as in
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BSonic the Hedgehog.
pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here:
1. Overusing =C2=ABdu= =C2=BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), where it's not needed, ju= st like in English with be;
2. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally= superfluous and even longer (!) =E2=80=93 we think of Terry, some tiger, a= nd assert they're the same: that doesn't really make sense!;
<= /div>
3. Using a restrict= ive relative/identity clause.
=E2= =80=8BAs for 3, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, which= Terry it is by referring by his name, because we're telling the story!= =E2=80=93 so it deserves the use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2= =ABdo no=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB would fit in here, and if I ever start saying =C2= =ABle broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because then I'd use = =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB= =8B=C2=BB as well.
ta'o, the non-CLL versi= on of that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABla .teris. no=E1=BB=8B tigra= =C2=BB.
What do you think?
le'o cu'i
mi'e la .uakci mu'o

=C2=B01= =C2=A0h= ttps://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a113ceffa1076c4052a420da7--