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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k2si112438lbs.3.2016.01.26.12.00.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d; Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id c192so112526452lfe.2 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.161.6 with SMTP id k6mr9319046lfe.17.1453838447782; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.159.36 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:00:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:00:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIMKrcG8ndcK7ICYgbWFsZ2xpY28=?= From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114106fa3db1b4052a4224b4 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114106fa3db1b4052a4224b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable coi la gejyspa *1&2*. I'm ok with that, le'o cu'i. Do what you wish, since it's your own text, and I like it much, either way. .=C5=ADi *3*. I wanted to show, that one could start translating the text word by word in a calquey, malglico way, yielding =C2=ABko'a poi du ko'e=C2=BB from= *A who is (a) B*, and then yell, *=C2=ABpoi du=C2=BB can be shortened to =C2=ABpo'u= =C2=BB!* .=C5=ADa pei mi'e la .uakci mu'o On 26 January 2016 at 20:53, Michael Turniansky wrote: > As the author of the piece, let me defend myself by saying: > > 1) that was one of the earliest pieces I wrote. And yes, today, I would > write "noi tirxu", and even here, I would say "no'u" rather than "po'u" > because you are right, "la teris" should uniquely identify one being. My > thinking was probably I wanted to differentiate this Terry from "Terry th= e > firefighter" and "Terry the lemon tree". Nonetheless, it has been read a= nd > critiqued many times in the past decade, and no one has complained on tha= t > point until now, so I am not going to change the venerable text, despite = my > own change in viewpoint in the interim. > > 2) restrictive vs. identity aside, though, I don't think that "no'u lo > tirxu" is any more "wrong" or less lobykai than "noi tirxu". Don't forge= t, > that while lojban may not be oriented as its ancestor Loglan was vis-a-vi= s > testing SWH, it still was deisgned to give one maximal flexibility in how > one expresses things. And I chose to express it nounily > > 3) who is using "du" here? Not I. uanai > > --gejyspa > > > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz > wrote: > >> coi la stevo >> >>> *=E2=80=8BLojban really "wants" to verb, English innately nouns a lot, = and as >>> English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressively noun more and >>> more. =E2=80=8B* >> >> *Lojban style:* That which Lojbans-type-of-languages, muchs in wanting >> to verb. And that which Englishes-type-of-languages, properties in muchi= ng >> in nouning. That which Lojbans-type-of-languages, constants in >> mores-type-of-becomes in nouning, results. >> mi'e la .uakci mu'o >> >> On 26 January 2016 at 20:35, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> >>> (Playing with the ideas/words:) >>> >>> Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English is innately very nouny, and >>> as English speakers use Lojban, it seems to get progressively nounier a= nd >>> nounier. >>> >>> Lojban really "wants" to verb, English innately nouns a lot, and as >>> English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressively noun more and mo= re. >>> >>> stevo >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Ian Johnson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It's the old noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u lo tirxu} doesn't >>>> actually add any real information that {la teris noi tirxu} doesn't. T= his >>>> comes up again and again: Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English i= s >>>> innately very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it seems to g= et >>>> progressively nounier and nounier. >>>> >>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz < >>>> ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> co=E1=BB=8B ro do >>>>> I've noticed that ga'a mi many uses of =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very >>>>> malglico-ish; sa'e mu'a, =C2=ABla teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o = le barda >>>>> tcadu=C2=BB seems to have words are calqued, one by one, i.e. >>>>> >>>>>> *=E2=80=8B=C2=AB*la teris.=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *Terry* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> =C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *who is* >>>>>> >>>>>> =E2=80=8B('well, that probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see *3*)= =E2=80=8B >>>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 *a tiger*=E2=80=8B (and it wo= uld be worse, pe'i, if it were >>>>>> =C2=ABle=C2=BB) >>>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin the article of the .=C5=ADitki, *Prof= anity* *=C2=B01* (that's >>>>> where I actually noticed it all): >>>>> >>>>>> You may also make use of >>>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >>>>>> do po'u >>>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >>>>>> to start a phrase meaning *You bastard, bitch*, etc. The particle >>>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B >>>>>> po'u >>>>>> =E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B >>>>>> roughly translates to >>>>>> =E2=80=8B *=E2=80=8B* >>>>>> *the*, as in >>>>>> *=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BSonic the Hedgehog*. >>>>> >>>>> pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here: >>>>> *1*. Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2=BB (and =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), = where it's not needed, just >>>>> like in English with *be*; >>>>> *2*. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally superfluous and even = longer (!) >>>>> =E2=80=93 we think of Terry, some tiger, and assert they're the same:= that doesn't >>>>> really make sense!; >>>>> *3*. Using a restrictive relative/identity clause. >>>>> =E2=80=8BAs for *3*, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, w= hich Terry it is >>>>> by referring by his name, because we're telling the story!=E2=80=93 s= o it deserves >>>>> the use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2=ABdo no=E1=BB=8B= =C2=BB would fit in here, and if I ever >>>>> start saying =C2=ABle broda=C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, beca= use then I'd use =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB to >>>>> clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB as well. >>>>> ta'o, the non-CLL version of that story gets it right, saying =C2=ABl= a >>>>> .teris. no=E1=BB=8B tigra=C2=BB. >>>>> What do you think? >>>>> le'o cu'i >>>>> mi'e la .uakci mu'o >>>>> >>>>> *=C2=B01* https://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114106fa3db1b4052a4224b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
coi la gejyspa
1&2. I'm ok with that, le'o cu'= i. Do what you wish, since it's your own text, and I like it much, eith= er way. .=C5=ADi
3. I wanted to show, that one co= uld start translating the text word by word in a calquey, malglico way, yie= lding =C2=ABko'a poi du ko'e=C2=BB from A who is (a) B, and = then yell, =C2=ABpoi du=C2=BB can be shortened to =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB!<= /i> .=C5=ADa pei
mi'e la .ua= kci mu'o

On 26 January 2016 at 20:53, Michael Turniansky <mturnia= nsky@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 As the author of the piece, let me defend myself by say= ing:

1) that was one of the earliest pieces I wrote.=C2= =A0 And yes, today, I would write "noi tirxu", and even here, I w= ould say "no'u" rather than "po'u" because you = are right, "la teris" should uniquely identify one being.=C2=A0 M= y thinking was probably I wanted to differentiate this Terry from "Ter= ry the firefighter" and "Terry the lemon tree".=C2=A0 Noneth= eless, it has been read and critiqued many times in the past decade, and no= one has complained on that point until now, so I am not going to change th= e venerable text, despite my own change in viewpoint in the interim.
<= div>
2) restrictive vs. identity aside, though, I don't t= hink that "no'u lo tirxu" is any more "wrong" or le= ss lobykai than "noi tirxu".=C2=A0 Don't forget, that while l= ojban may not be oriented as its ancestor Loglan was vis-a-vis testing SWH,= it still was deisgned to give one maximal flexibility in how one expresses= things.=C2=A0 And I chose to express it nounily

3= ) =C2=A0who is using "du" here?=C2=A0 Not I. =C2=A0uanai

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa<= /div>



On Tue, J= an 26, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>= wrote:
coi la stevo
=E2=80=8B
Lojban really "wants" to verb, English inna= tely nouns a lot, and as English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressi= vely noun more and more.=C2=A0=E2=80=8B
mi'e la .uakci mu'o
=

On 26 J= anuary 2016 at 20:35, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wro= te:
(Playing with the ideas/= words:)

Lojban really "wants" to be verb= y, English is innately very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it s= eems to get progressively nounier and nounier.

Lojban really "wants" to verb, English innately nouns a lot, = and as English speakers Lojban, Lojban seems to progressively noun more and= more.=C2=A0

stevo=C2=A0

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016= at 1:28 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote= :
It's the old = noun-verb problem: {la teris po'u lo tirxu} doesn't actually add an= y real information that {la teris noi tirxu} doesn't. This comes up aga= in and again: Lojban really "wants" to be verby, English is innat= ely very nouny, and as English speakers use Lojban, it seems to get progres= sively nounier and nounier.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Panasiewicz <<= a href=3D"mailto:ciuak.prog@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ciuak.prog@gmail.c= om> wrote:
co=E1=BB=8B ro do
I've noticed that ga'a mi many uses of = =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB are very malglico-ish;=C2=A0sa'e mu'a, =C2=ABl= a teris. po'u lo tirxu cu vitke zi'o le barda tcadu=C2=BB seems to = have words are calqued, one by one, i.e.
=E2=80=8B=C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB =E2=80= =93 Terry
=C2=A0
=C2=AB=E2=80=8Bpo'u=C2=BB =E2=80=93 who is=
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B('well, tha= t probably is restrictive!' =E2=80=93 see 3)=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B= =C2=ABlo tirxu=C2=BB =E2=80=93 a tiger=E2=80=8B (and it would be wor= se, pe'i, if it were =C2=ABle=C2=BB)
=E2=80=8BSame thing =E2=80=8Bin the article of= the .=C5=ADitki, Profanity=C2=A0=C2=B01=C2=A0(that's whe= re I actually noticed it all):
You may also make use of
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
do po'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
to start a phrase meaning You bastard, bitch, etc. The particle
=E2=80=8B=C2=AB=E2=80=8B
po'u
=E2=80=8B=C2=BB=E2=80=8B
roughly translates to
=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B
the, as in =
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
Sonic the= Hedgehog.
pe'i, there =E2=80=8Bare three issues in here:
1. Overusing =C2=ABdu=C2=BB (and= =C2=ABpo=E1=BB=8B du=C2=BB here), where it's not needed, just like in = English with be;
2. Using =C2=ABpo'u=C2=BB, where it's totally superfluo= us and even longer (!) =E2=80=93 we think of Terry, some tiger, and assert = they're the same: that doesn't really make sense!;
=
3. Using a restrictive relati= ve/identity clause.
=E2=80=8BAs for= 3, if we say =C2=ABla teris.=C2=BB, then we know, which Terry it is= by referring by his name, because we're telling the story!=E2=80=93 so= it deserves the use of =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB. Similarly, =C2=ABdo no=E1= =BB=8B=C2=BB would fit in here, and if I ever start saying =C2=ABle broda= =C2=BB (and not =C2=ABlo broda=C2=BB, because then I'd use =C2=ABpo=E1= =BB=8B=C2=BB to clarify), I'd continue with =C2=ABno=E1=BB=8B=C2=BB as = well.
ta'o, the non-CLL version of that st= ory gets it right, saying =C2=ABla .teris. no=E1=BB=8B tigra=C2=BB.
What do you think?
le'o cu'i
mi'e la .uakci mu'o

=C2=B01=C2=A0https://mw.lojban= .org/papri/profanity

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