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From: Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs
 clearer, more detailed entries
Thread-Topic: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs
 clearer, more detailed entries
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:31:21 +0000
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I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :)


Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community uses f=
or coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, GitHub=
 etc.?


________________________________
From: lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew=
 <summerfallsaway@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs =
clearer, more detailed entries

mungojelly/selckiku:
you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
mean they don't exist.

What? To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from making up n=
ew words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if that's wha=
t you're getting at. New words are made up all the time -- we then add them=
 to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn and=
 use those new words. I don't know what to say about supposed valsi that ex=
ist but which do not appear in the dictionary... except that if they are re=
ally part of the language, then those undefined valsi should be defined too=
. How else would new people learn the full language?

Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical =
to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how bes=
t to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least generally=
 agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining the full meanin=
g of the brivla. If we agree on that much, then we should do a better job e=
xplaining the brivla. If this were truly an impractical task, then lojban i=
s doomed to obscurity forever. However, I would argue that updating the dic=
tionary is perfectly doable if we can just agree that it's necessary, and a=
gree on how to do it.

The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more feasibl=
e if we first made sure that all new words fill out our template for a more=
 detailed brivla definition. Then we only have to worry about updating the =
entries that have already made it into the dictionary: a large, but finite =
number.

Am I being clear? Does this makes sense?

~Andrew / cemjig


On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew <summerf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition templa=
te
> for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new lu=
jvo
> into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, but =
it
> doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this more
> complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of words =
to
> review.

na'i

You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of
unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the
words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less
useful to someone trying to understand the real language.

<3,
mungojelly/selckiku

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<html>
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1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
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<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;back=
ground-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :)<=
/p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community use=
s for coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, Git=
Hub etc.?<br>
</p>
<font color=3D"#282828"><font size=3D"2"><b>&nbsp;</b></font></font><br>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> lojban@googlegroups=
.com &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of Andrew &lt;summerfallsawa=
y@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary=
 needs clearer, more detailed entries</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">mungojelly/selckiku:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will <br>
mean they don't exist.<br>
</blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<i>What?</i> To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from maki=
ng up new words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if tha=
t's what you're getting at. New words are made up all the time -- we then a=
dd them to the dictionary to clarify
 their meaning and to help others to learn and use those new words. I don't=
 know what to say about supposed valsi that exist but which do not appear i=
n the dictionary... except that if they are really part of the language, th=
en those undefined valsi
<i>should be defined too.</i> How else would new people learn the full lang=
uage?<br>
<br>
Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical =
to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how bes=
t to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least generally=
 agree that the dictionary could
 do a better job explaining the full meaning of the brivla. If we agree on =
that much,
<i>then we should do a better job</i> explaining the brivla. If this were t=
ruly an impractical task, then lojban is doomed to obscurity forever. Howev=
er, I would argue that updating the dictionary is perfectly doable if we ca=
n just agree that it's necessary,
 and agree on how to do it.<br>
<br>
The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more feasibl=
e if we first made sure that all
<i>new</i> words fill out our template for a more detailed brivla definitio=
n. Then we only have to worry about updating the entries that have already =
made it into the dictionary: a large, but finite number.<br>
<br>
Am I being clear? Does this makes sense?<br>
<br>
~Andrew / cemjig<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote:
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0; margin-left:0.8ex; bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew &lt;<a href=3D"" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow">summerf...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition tem=
plate <br>
&gt; for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new=
 lujvo <br>
&gt; into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, b=
ut it <br>
&gt; doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this more=
 <br>
&gt; complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of wor=
ds to <br>
&gt; review. <br>
<br>
na'i <br>
<br>
You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will <br>
mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of <br>
unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the <br>
words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less <br>
useful to someone trying to understand the real language. <br>
<br>
&lt;3, <br>
mungojelly/selckiku <br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p></p>
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