Received: from mail-pf0-f189.google.com ([209.85.192.189]:32958) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aQrLf-00071A-JK for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:55:35 -0800 Received: by mail-pf0-f189.google.com with SMTP id 66sf5340704pfe.0 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:55:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=lPeHGHGc+3Fu49Z8axep1c4gl5/ofZSRe4D8KnWgR1k=; b=h7J2UbZulyZTS24hsuwNJQLIScnm0LW6OxOAauFmkp2lsQR6NvWJH81xnCrUbbcal6 SZgE3EQQSUt82kdINl3hM1zLK4VSN60h7GkYb84CfqObJfb5CMi0h96EImjc1luex3Js VUjvWhPMbCqZof3p1YbLZRatj5bg4kEnolkkB3GcfCXAEz4L7eHKfdebPd0JnbwdhZUi tPZAgtDP9SwV3cyatZLBauD9lrP4agSYNIYIj1vbo5IhQe32YPscQfwa3GSTkC90sZOL FigHV+EVgFsGMkh5HC5xGosiaVS/KdtO+r5zsfZfjb1NA9uucxwf3SCWwcnlJsXKpwM+ wtQQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=lPeHGHGc+3Fu49Z8axep1c4gl5/ofZSRe4D8KnWgR1k=; b=w7vctYaJqdzkKUH4mVmYqP2blxU7Prjt11cX1s4cbH9OmZeyLpymlaB0ejgDmyZvXl TkVBKo3/6DBf6aFcIoFRk36JwLieXg9J29c/r0VdBaL6ZyXNTnmzmhr8cTqwBO8rbyOx KQS9vh17dcMgUoXVgFS99F/yFzuh8tG5noWjO349ijuTcX9r6toUXuO/0crX9USOhbtE 47JW69hZluAfhXgytSBfn3qUSuDkcgmEHBj+WRM2YWMl4QSfVkV8w3SRpI4r+XLHd4WN uCx9mXi1p0EQ4DrjGsVIf+OxjHvqPUMhRScUxsBuBTY0UzOOBwuunXlyJdlBayGhUXpp QyVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=lPeHGHGc+3Fu49Z8axep1c4gl5/ofZSRe4D8KnWgR1k=; b=FnhvryZahld/OdSQ2fF7WOKSYbp6DWU/+Wg6hJHGGnwYDSblXe49NOl1BAlhcSRmyk 6TA41+EFr8A3aLAZziLRL11WYzL6DFLMd5A9nvctyLSIHOCk2djlgS1xGhJYHxbUiJwm vRP0AYWGFn8ivIE7dB3+D9brTYX8jqvGskQBJGKZdQMRtsjqB/gmWB20Dh3xGgCkFIzL OZ9m234jpzi644/MtdtJhf0FZ5u9a/TYaMoLFZfwsG2sRBdhkqfoeP6VEXackQR+P7XM o7FvhwvLbg/8+uTWuJnO90Lc3USu/KCAZG2LgKMlj6btJkvzWaBLhaRmeH54LrQjrXu1 5/3w== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQ+sxMC94wVYFTOUzcqxXFTq1vrdjNQvaHCBgTg3odvD9CY5N4sa9v6eUjWxssbDQ== X-Received: by 10.140.85.48 with SMTP id m45mr621096qgd.8.1454482525729; Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:55:25 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.33.134 with SMTP id j6ls255037qgj.88.gmail; Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:55:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.100.129 with SMTP id s1mr619033qge.18.1454482525001; Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:55:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 22:55:24 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> <63d48970-5e61-4e4e-b4f0-aa60b5561c89@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_10008_537339827.1454482524549" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_10008_537339827.1454482524549 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10009_586840839.1454482524550" ------=_Part_10009_586840839.1454482524550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more example is another string /Search "$1" on $2/ E.g. /Search for "Vivaldi" on Google/. Needless to say, we don't have two {fa'o}. zoi...zoi have problems=20 mentioned earlier. Em domingo, 20 de dezembro de 2015 16:04:06 UTC+3, la gleki escreveu: > > > > 2015-12-20 14:45 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> >> >> Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 11:12:28 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> >>> >>> 2015-12-20 13:55 GMT+03:00 : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 10:13:29 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit = : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-12-20 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9cri= t : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> >>>>>> I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers= =20 >>>>>>> are merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it. >>>>>>> Changing Lojban is breaking its community which already happened=20 >>>>>>> once in 2004. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's a pity that the current Lojban is probably irreversibly=20 >>>>>>> incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perceive as i= f the=20 >>>>>>> language is starting from scratch. But I of course can't accept if = this is=20 >>>>>>> going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my intolerance over = even=20 >>>>>>> more backward incompatible changes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Teaching {la'oi} in your course and abusing a statement in NU clause= :=20 >>>>>> what a double standard of you! It's you who broke so-called Lojbanis= tan by=20 >>>>>> expelling me.=20 >>>>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_egocentrism_of_a_Lojban_community >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. I didn't expel you. I'm just documenting what people are using. As= =20 >>>>> I said I perceive the situation as starting the language from scratch= . But=20 >>>>> when some person says "let's drop this usage" it's breaking communica= tion.=20 >>>>> >>>> >>>> You did. See the proof in the page of URL above. >>>> >>> >>> I don't understand that page, sorry. At all :( Don't understand=20 >>> reasoning, just nothing. You may try discussing it with other people.= =20 >>> >>>> =20 >>>> >>>>> 2. Am I supposed not to teach {la'oi}? Then how one would understand= =20 >>>>> what this {la'oi} means? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Simply teach that it's not Lojban. Even doing it, the learner will fin= d=20 >>>> it in jbovlaste, and understand the usage. >>>> >>> >>> Definition in jbovlaste are usually cryptic and the website currently= =20 >>> lacks satisfactory tools to show examples. >>> Maybe instead add a notice that {la'oi} is ... I don't know what=20 >>> adjective to use so that it can suit you. "not mainstream", "used by so= me=20 >>> people"? The section already has the section "usage is problematic". >>> >>> Also I not precisely explained how my course is to be used. So I=20 >>> clarified the very first paragraph explaining the algorithm of using th= e=20 >>> course. To use one is supposed to provide feedback. Other usage is not= =20 >>> approved. >>> >>> I understand that readers in past could understand this course as a=20 >>> still finalized book despite warnings that it was a draft. >>> >>> >> It's rather desirable that definition in jbovlaste is cryptic, and the= =20 >> examples are not very reachable. New learners would avoid using {la'oi},= or=20 >> supporters of {la'oi} would give a learnable non-official page of {la'oi= }.=20 >> Both are out of teacher's mission. >> > > So I'll then add it to the dictionary in the appendix. > =20 > >> >> =20 >>> >>>> =20 >>>> >>>>> 3. People are using {la'oi}. I don't understand how {la'oi} breaks=20 >>>>> CLL. This particle is backward compatible. What problems are you havi= ng=20 >>>>> with it? I can only see that for you {la'oi} is not neutral towards= =20 >>>>> Polynesian languages. But we already know that Lojban is not neutral.= Why=20 >>>>> are you accusing me of teaching it? The little blame gets all the bla= me?=20 >>>>> The same as before. If one does nothing 'ey can't be blaimed. Is this= what=20 >>>>> is desired? >>>>> >>>> >>>> It breaks CLL 1.1 by forcing learners cultural non-neutrality. As for= =20 >>>> the correctness of CLL, use bpfk list: >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/5_SDz58KJAw/discussion >>>> >>>> =20 >>>> >>>>> 4. I don't understand what does mean "abusing a statement in NU=20 >>>>> clause"? Using {nu} where {du'u} is to be used? It's from xorxe's Ali= ce. If=20 >>>>> there is some underformalization going on I don't have time to resolv= e it=20 >>>>> when everything is working anyways. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> No, I simply meant syntactic form "NU statement (KEI)", which require= =20 >>>> some KEI non-elidible more than camxes. You abused also my parser pars= es=20 >>>> differently from camxes as follows: >>>> >>>> ([{ro BOI} {mo } KU] VAU)=20 >>>> >>>> ([{ mo KU} {cu VAU}] IAU)=20 >>>> >>>> ([{ mo KU} {ge GIhI}] IAU)=20 >>>> >>>> You did then said "ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau", which= =20 >>>> implies that you expelled me from so-called Lojbanistan. >>>> >>> >>> Oh, hm. Now I see. But that reasoning also implies that I expelled=20 >>> myself too .o'u. >>> >> >> You don't understand the proof. You speak IRC dialects, then it does no= t=20 >> imply that you expelled yourself. >> > > I mean I wrote parsers with the grammar different from the one in the CLL= =20 > appendix. > =20 > >> Why don't you follow a primary course of Logic before teaching Lojban? >> > > The same reason why I, not more proficient people worked on mw.lojban.org= =20 > wiki from the beginning. > Because no one else simply volunteers. > > =20 >> >>> =20 >>> >>>> >>>> You didn't mention that your parser for your course "camxes-exp" parse= s=20 >>>> cmevla as tanru unit: it is already backward incompatible to camxes. I= t is=20 >>>> another evidence of your double standard. >>>> >>> >>> Indeed, it's a mistake to be corrected. I will change to a better parse= r=20 >>> in future but currently I lack free time. It's not double standard. I= =20 >>> simply can't do the work for everyone. >>> =20 >>> >>> I also wish you sent feedback directly to me as the course asks, not=20 >>> collect some evidence as my own opinion. >>> I'm only a collector and a teacher, not a designer of languages. >>> >>> >> You are also an expeller of me and a de-selector of un-pleasant-to-you= =20 >> features.=20 >> > > I can't comment on this. I don't know what you are talking about. > As before, if you think a project isn't moving forward you are free to=20 > start your own project. > Provide alternatives! > > >> I recommend you not to teach any new features before admitted by BPFK.= =20 >> Don't collect the unofficial features but obey BPFK. It is reasonable if= =20 >> you add new features after admission of BPFK.=20 >> > > ok > =20 > >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_10009_586840839.1454482524550 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One more example is another string
/Search "$1&qu= ot; on $2/

E.g. /Search for "Vivaldi" on= Google/.

Needless to say, we don't have two {= fa'o}. zoi...zoi have problems mentioned earlier.

Em domingo, 20= de dezembro de 2015 16:04:06 UTC+3, la gleki escreveu:


2015-12-20 14:45 GMT+03:00 guskant <= gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:

Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 11:12:28 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit= =C2=A0:

<= div>
2015-12-20 13:55 GMT+03:00 <jacfold...@gmail.com>:


Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9cembre 2015 10:13:2= 9 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


2015-12-20 1= 2:32 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@g= mail.com>:


Le dimanche 20 d=C3=A9= cembre 2015 08:57:23 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

=C2=A0
<= /div>
I'm intolerant to everything beyond CLL. Even my unofficial parsers = are merely a playtoy, a tool to study Lojban, not to break it.
Ch= anging Lojban is breaking its community which already happened once in 2004= .

It's a pity that the current Lojban is proba= bly irreversibly incompatible with CLL, I only have to accept that and perc= eive as if the language is starting from scratch. But I of course can't= accept if this is going to happen on a regular basis. That's why my in= tolerance over even more backward incompatible changes.


Teaching {l= a'oi} in your course and abusing a statement in NU clause: what a doubl= e standard of you! It's you who broke so-called Lojbanistan by expellin= g me.=C2=A0

1. I didn't expel you. I'm just documenting wh= at people are using. As I said I perceive the situation as starting the lan= guage from scratch. But when some person says "let's drop this usa= ge" it's breaking communication.=C2=A0

You did. See the proof in the page of U= RL above.

I don't understand that= page, sorry. At all :( Don't understand reasoning, just nothing. You m= ay try discussing it with other people.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
2. Am I supposed not to te= ach {la'oi}? Then how one would understand what this {la'oi} means?=

Simply teac= h that it's not Lojban. Even doing it, the learner will find it in jbov= laste, and understand the usage.

Defi= nition in jbovlaste are usually cryptic and the website currently lacks sat= isfactory tools to show examples.
Maybe instead add a notice that= {la'oi} is ...=C2=A0 I don't know what adjective to use so that it= can suit you. "not mainstream", "used by some people"?= The section already has the section "usage is problematic".

Also I not precisely explained how my course is to be = used. So I clarified the very first paragraph explaining the algorithm of u= sing the course. To use one is supposed to provide feedback. Other usage is= not approved.

I understand that readers in past c= ould understand this course as a still finalized book despite warnings that= it was a draft.

=C2=A0It's rather desirable that definition in jbov= laste is cryptic, and the examples are not very reachable. New learners wou= ld avoid using {la'oi}, or supporters of {la'oi} would give a learn= able non-official page of {la'oi}. Both are out of teacher's missio= n.

So I'll then add it to the dic= tionary in the appendix.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
3. Peop= le are using {la'oi}. I don't understand how {la'oi} breaks CLL= . This particle is backward compatible. What problems are you having with i= t? I can only see that for you {la'oi} is not neutral towards Polynesia= n languages. But we already know that Lojban is not neutral. Why are you ac= cusing me of teaching it? The little blame gets all the blame? The same as = before. If one does nothing 'ey can't be blaimed. Is this what is d= esired?

It b= reaks CLL 1.1 by forcing learners cultural non-neutrality. As for the corre= ctness of CLL, use bpfk list:

=C2=A0
4. I don't understand what does mean "abusing a statement = in NU clause"? Using {nu} where {du'u} is to be used? It's fro= m xorxe's Alice. If there is some underformalization going on I don'= ;t have time to resolve it when everything is working anyways.


No, I= simply meant syntactic form "NU statement (KEI)", which require = some KEI non-elidible more than camxes. You abused also my parser parses di= fferently from camxes as follows:

([{ro BOI} = {mo <ge mo (=C2=B9gi mo=C2=B9) GIhI>} KU] VAU)=C2=A0

([{<ro BOI> mo KU} {cu <ge mo (=C2=B9gi mo=C2=B9) GIhI>= ; VAU}] IAU)=C2=A0

([{<ro BOI> mo KU} {ge &l= t;cu (=C2=B9mo VAU=C2=B9)> <gi (=C2=B9CU [mo VAU]=C2=B9)> GIhI}] I= AU)=C2=A0

You did then said "= ;ja'o lo=C2=A0guskanbau=C2=A0cu banzu frica lo jbobau", which implies that you = expelled me from so-called Lojbanistan.

<= /div>
Oh, hm. Now I see. But that reasoning also implies that I expelle= d myself too .o'u.

<= /span>
You don't understand the proof. You speak IRC dialects, =C2= =A0then it does not imply that you expelled yourself.

I mean I wrote parsers with the grammar different from the= one in the CLL appendix.
=C2=A0
Why don't you follow a primary course of Logic before teachin= g Lojban?

The same reason why I, not = more proficient people worked on mw.lojban= .org wiki from the beginning.
Because no one else simply volu= nteers.

=C2= =A0
=C2=A0

You didn't menti= on that your parser for your course "camxes-exp" parses cmevla as= tanru unit: it is already backward incompatible to camxes. It is another e= vidence of your double standard.

Indeed, it's a mistake to be corrected. I will change to a better pa= rser in future but currently I lack free time. It's not double standard= . I simply can't do the work for everyone.
=C2=A0
<= br>
I also wish you sent feedback directly to me as the course as= ks, not collect some evidence as my own opinion.
I'm only a c= ollector and a teacher, not a designer of languages.

<= /div>

You are also an expeller of me= and a de-selector of un-pleasant-to-you features.=C2=A0
=

I can't comment on this. I don't know what you = are talking about.
As before, if you think a project isn't mo= ving forward you are free to start your own project.
Provide alte= rnatives!


I recommend you not to teach any new features before admitted by BPFK= . Don't collect the unofficial features but obey BPFK. It is reasonable= if you add new features after admission of BPFK.=C2=A0
<= div>
ok
=C2=A0
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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