Received: from mail-ig0-f188.google.com ([209.85.213.188]:33990) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aQucF-0007Nb-V5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 02:24:56 -0800 Received: by mail-ig0-f188.google.com with SMTP id ik10sf10077562igb.1 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 02:24:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=4Cjz44bEk4w30L2nUxx6OQX3OmkEypEfoc+AlKJVyr8=; b=mIm680ZwhCEc6dPFNHBXNEa9NmLuOqMeAoRZFbpYYXX/YEgVkfv3StTshD6+unE1Iu /NCvWtzaONzmRPhpPNx03nghei3r8sG17m0GkzoEJpL1CjxoFC4CIL46Jkf+NANdC7sz GZT2Raf+i4eBFiWUQGFgA/FSWCj/AUwL/T8uzDpUGtSQ6I5elDssmwXanlgHx9qxprb4 4p90aix0blpI1dDz3gIgDUwfD5luVaSWjg3ZmM3Htv5raVsX0CCAPUaFwp6xSeiZGhb6 xhA5FnB/Mo95UnBrayS6OaRLMAXMdPq+AuVf2BAdgrX6gXHnB7fCVugZyAJzNkydrutc Hizg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=4Cjz44bEk4w30L2nUxx6OQX3OmkEypEfoc+AlKJVyr8=; b=i12dB03CEWLKUsSY/8sQHyIiQPOt9/pzxNL3XTtlKF/a1hsnW4nIGlUg2zoAaawkcU 0zX10yEOyhTNv7XOqEDW2bHX6COD2TQptN0EQjfgt8YD9Bs1PhDP9ctwbMYXKXqjrqjs 0WgYzDEuh3gT4uOOslvcj72sbIpQBtqdLNpw15ZmgQyEKFqU+B3ADVSGyWx4yDv+ZSDN dRxxL8lGIIxpxS4lYR2cZ7MI7ECfIJg+ssKjvN80HOAExmtOmD1DVV0Oi7aB3KBp389y rYK1kiZmcUU7AIE2Kk3mJDZunwukZVFUpKpcFrM3rnvmkU7Qxn+FkBIaia91OoulRQsf oQ/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=4Cjz44bEk4w30L2nUxx6OQX3OmkEypEfoc+AlKJVyr8=; b=gtVUsx5RjsdgaJ4IJ2LIm2+/kztJ82uBfZSTJ7TFZIYbM0gbWQDlv3OEWr5PnlC8Ot lEZ1PXAUHQS//A7gduNdjlOPZrBVDwQmNyUH0Mb3sAsOeLU/cU5nW/ZJmsezs1MW+ltd /w9i9EvcT86seDMJX1VmqOMdnpsg+/RdMKnVLtnFWXODK21ZXLo/z3HAT2/yM2/j2xGZ uIXX6efYoiHc+vlpa0xgVSbhGiaIE03WWL8JIKl0iWzcf5y/lR56gK4MCBNIc5YpRQLe HhENEsQehAAc9AnCOVp9PN7p6ZfXYKOOS20Y9XZpD6wUVc7UHctKfCDL7APtNUYSWRIZ hyNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQYeNzuFFYhb5jUuuOEEM1oqD42OKhn/BnPq3SIegzVQ2tcQOsFY37aL8XbsdCx0A== X-Received: by 10.140.33.136 with SMTP id j8mr12789qgj.4.1454495086115; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 02:24:46 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.106.9 with SMTP id d9ls308871qgf.38.gmail; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 02:24:45 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.99.23 with SMTP id p23mr12437qge.1.1454495085414; Wed, 03 Feb 2016 02:24:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 02:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: guskant To: lojban Message-Id: <4af4a1c7-a0a6-4d7a-8e40-a9b88a062059@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <82905720-4d75-4196-9886-cc8c034d9f83@googlegroups.com> <6e9ca8d6-4dcc-4103-a990-4df0ffb16899@googlegroups.com> <56AF570C.1050409@gmail.com> <0c5400d9-fec8-4215-8878-3918c043b226@googlegroups.com> <84590e65-e905-42e9-8738-55eaa5bec2f7@googlegroups.com> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_The_experimental_version_of_Camxes=2DJS_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=94_=5Bfork_from_the_thread_=22Terminator_for_la=22=5D?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_7328_226322656.1454495084495" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.2 X-Spam_score_int: 2 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Le mercredi 3 février 2016 09:18:31 UTC, la gleki a écrit : > > > > 2016-02-02 13:09 GMT+03:00 guskant >: > >> >> >> Le mardi 2 février 2016 06:39:15 UTC, la gleki a écrit : >>> >>> >>> 2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant : >>> >>>> The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parser >>>> on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal >>>> beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-js is >>>> of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official soon. >>>> >>> >>> It's simply not true. >>> >>> >> >> >> There is no evidence that it's not true, while there are evidences that >> it's true. >> Because you have concealed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use >> the wayback machine here: >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20151031175123/https://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20150226233559/http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft) >> >> The first archive above shows that your personal beginner's course deals >> with "modern dialects of Lojban". >> > > Of course. I use users' feedback to improve it. It has been so and will be > so. That's the nature of the course. > > If a person uses this course then he/she sends feedback back. > > All constructive criticism is taken into consideration. Yelling "it's > wrong" is not taken into account. > > >> The second one shows that the followers of your personal beginner's >> course should use the parser >> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html , that is >> experimental camxes-js, for checking the grammar of their sentences. >> > > The Crash Course is a draft. I wasn't careful enough to study this parser. > By now, the "more official" ilmentufa parser is more or less fine so I > changed to it. > > Most "problems" with the course is due to lack of care because the > language is big. > > Not because of hidden intentions that don't exist. > > >> Besides, you made some modifications on [...] Content analysis details: (0.2 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: lojban.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.213.188 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gusni.kantu[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 2.0 HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH BODY: No description available. 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders 0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different ------=_Part_7328_226322656.1454495084495 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7329_855426882.1454495084495" ------=_Part_7329_855426882.1454495084495 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le mercredi 3 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 09:18:31 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > > > > 2016-02-02 13:09 GMT+03:00 guskant >: > >> >> >> Le mardi 2 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 06:39:15 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> >>> 2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant : >>> >>>> The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parser= =20 >>>> on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal=20 >>>> beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-j= s is=20 >>>> of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official s= oon. >>>> >>> >>> It's simply not true. >>> =20 >>> >> >> >> There is no evidence that it's not true, while there are evidences that= =20 >> it's true. >> Because you have concealed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use= =20 >> the wayback machine here: >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20151031175123/https://mw.lojban.org/papri/L= a_Bangu >> >> https://web.archive.org/web/20150226233559/http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Th= e_Crash_Course_(a_draft) >> >> The first archive above shows that your personal beginner's course deals= =20 >> with "modern dialects of Lojban".=20 >> > > Of course. I use users' feedback to improve it. It has been so and will b= e=20 > so. That's the nature of the course. > > If a person uses this course then he/she sends feedback back. > > All constructive criticism is taken into consideration. Yelling "it's=20 > wrong" is not taken into account. > > >> The second one shows that the followers of your personal beginner's=20 >> course should use the parser=20 >> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html , that is=20 >> experimental camxes-js, for checking the grammar of their sentences. >> > > The Crash Course is a draft. I wasn't careful enough to study this parser= .=20 > By now, the "more official" ilmentufa parser is more or less fine so I=20 > changed to it. > > Most "problems" with the course is due to lack of care because the=20 > language is big. > > Not because of hidden intentions that don't exist. > > >> Besides, you made some modifications on the experimental camxes-js that= =20 >> were reflected on the parser on lojban.org. >> https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/commits/master/camxes-exp.js.peg >> >> Those three records are evidences for your dictatorship that you abused= =20 >> your authority on lojban.org by freely modified the tool on official=20 >> server for your personal beginner's course. >> >> =20 >> >>> We can no more see that egocentric version of his personal beginner's= =20 >>>> course, because he has already concealed the evidence. >>>> >>> >>> Because it's not egocentric and on the contrary altruistic. >>> What can even be egocentric in an activity for which personally I gain= =20 >>> nothing. >>> =20 >>> >> >> >> You gained "modern Lojban" suitable to your ideal, and deprived me of my= =20 >> citizenship of Lojban community. The evidences are below. >> >> You differentiated Zantufa grammar on #lojban channel of IRC: >> --- Day changed Mon Aug 10 2015 >> 10:43 < gleki> lo catni gerna cu te frica ma'oi GUhA ma'oi GA i ma'i la= =20 >> zantufa lo cmavo be ma'oi GUhA cu na'e se nitcu jecu ku'i binxo lo cmavo= be=20 >> ma'oi GA i lu ro mo cu ge mo gi mo li'u ja lu ro mo ge cu mo gi mo li'u = cu=20 >> se stura lo simsa be tu'a lo catni gerna sei ku'i na'e dunli >> 10:43 < gleki> i di'u se cusku la guskant >> 10:43 < gleki> i ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau >> >> This record and above three records are evidences for your egocentrism o= f=20 >> asserting that I am not Lojbanist, while you keep some dialects that you= =20 >> permit to be modern Lojban. >> > > Those are not my dialects. Those are from the community. > > You banned yourself from the community by not providing any feedback=20 > whereas a lot of people (at least 20) throughout the history of the=20 > development of the Crash Course has contributed to it. > > If there are "dialects" in the Course and everyone thinks they are fine= =20 > then I won't delete them. > > However, when someone notices a problem and suggests a solution or others= =20 > suggest a solution then the solution is implemented. > E.g. recently following users' feedback I removed experimental word=20 > {mi'ai} because users in general thought that it wasn't that useful. > > If something else problematic is discovered then it will be reflected as= =20 > it HAS ALWAYS been so. > > When the number of issues drops to "not more than 1 issue once every two= =20 > months" then IMO it will be time to call it "beta version" of the Course.= =20 > But currently it's still a draft (not that IMO any other courses in=20 > English are much more perfect). > > >> =20 >> >>> The fact that Gleki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved=20 >>>> point, though his dictatorship will not stop as long as he continues= =20 >>>> administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org. >>>> >>> >>> You simply don't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. no= t=20 >>> me. You as well can get an account there and put everything relevant to= =20 >>> Lojban you like. >>> >>> >> >> I don't know about the whole administratorship on that server. However,= =20 >> at least your modifications on tools are all reflected on the web conten= ts=20 >> of lojban.org. >> http://vrici.lojban.org/~gleki/ >> (I don't know why that folder is kept visible to public.) >> >> =20 >> >>> Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki: >>>> >>> >>> You as well publish different unofficial resources on lojban.org >>> >>> The only reason for me to publish it there was and is to provide a=20 >>> faster way of accessing them. >>> >>> >> >> I only modified pages of mediawiki with notes of "unofficial" when=20 >> necessary, while you modified any tools on lojban.org as you like. You= =20 >> have the whole power on lojban.org web contents >> > > No, it's not true. Those are your fantasies. > The folder mw.lojban.org/extensions/ is visible because it was faster to= =20 > access them by users. > By various reasons it's indeed better to move them to other hostings. > But I had no time for doing so. > The whole code is open so everyone is free to do so. > DON'T COMPLAIN. INSTEAD DO BETTER. > > Again and again, you changed the subject and would not answer to my remark.= =20 I don't complain about what you teach in your personal beginner's course.= =20 My remark is about your dictatorship of freely changing the tools on=20 official website for your personal contents. You abuse your authority on=20 official website for your personal contents. The tools on lojban.org don't= =20 contain any information about the responsibility of the tools themselves,= =20 and then no one doubt that the tools are maintained by the official body.= =20 The truth is that not the official body but you maintain the tools.=20 I recommend that you maintain your tools as you like outside of official=20 website. Don't abuse your authority on the contents of lojban.org. I=20 appreciate that you finally informed us of the new page for ilmentufa=20 parsers on lojban.github.io, where we all can join the maintenance and you= =20 cannot execute your dictatorship. Continue that way. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_7329_855426882.1454495084495 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le mercredi 3 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 09:18:31 UTC, la g= leki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


2016-02-02 13:09 GMT+03:= 00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:


Le mardi 2 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 06:39:15 UTC,= la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=
2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintain= ed the parser on the official lojban.org server= so that it fit to his personal beginner's course, asserting that the g= rammar of experimental camxes-js is of new Lojban, as if it were de facto s= tandard, or would be official soon.

I= t's simply not true.
=C2=A0


There is no evidence that= it's not true, while there are evidences that it's true.
Because you have concealed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.org/web/201502262335= 59/http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)

The first archive above shows that your personal begin= ner's course deals with "modern dialects of Lojban".=C2=A0

Of course. I use users'= feedback to improve it. It has been so and will be so. That's the natu= re of the course.

If a person uses this course the= n he/she sends feedback back.

All constructive cri= ticism is taken into consideration. Yelling "it's wrong" is n= ot taken into account.


The second one shows that the followers of your = personal beginner's course should use the parser http://mw.lojban= .org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html , that is experimen= tal camxes-js, for checking the grammar of their sentences.

The Crash Course is a draft. I wasn'= t careful enough to study this parser. By now, the "more official"= ; ilmentufa parser is more or less fine so I changed to it.

<= /div>
Most "problems" with the course is due to lack of care = because the language is big.

Not because of hidden= intentions that don't exist.


Besides, you made some modifications = on the experimental camxes-js that were reflected on the parser on lojban.org.

Those three records a= re evidences for your dictatorship that you abused your authority on lojban.org by freely modified the tool on official se= rver for your personal beginner's course.

=C2=A0
We can no more see that egocentric versio= n of his personal beginner's course, because he has already concealed t= he evidence.

Because it's not ego= centric and on the contrary altruistic.
What can even be egocentr= ic in an activity for which personally I gain nothing.
=C2=A0


=
You gained "modern Lojban" suitable to your ideal, and depri= ved me of my citizenship of Lojban community. The evidences are below.

You differentiated Zantufa grammar on #lojban channel = of IRC:
--- Day changed Mon Aug 10 2015
10:43 < glek= i> lo catni gerna cu te frica ma'oi GUhA ma'oi GA i ma'i la = zantufa lo cmavo be ma'oi GUhA cu na'e se nitcu jecu ku'i binxo= lo cmavo be ma'oi GA i lu ro mo cu ge mo gi mo li'u ja lu ro mo ge= cu mo gi mo li'u cu se stura lo simsa be tu'a lo catni gerna sei k= u'i na'e dunli
10:43 < gleki> i di'u se cusku l= a guskant
10:43 < gleki> i ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu f= rica lo jbobau

This record and above three records= are evidences for your egocentrism of asserting that I am not Lojbanist, w= hile you keep some dialects that you permit to be modern Lojban.

Those are not my dialects. Those ar= e from the community.

You banned yourself =C2=A0fr= om the community by not providing any feedback whereas a lot of people (at = least 20) throughout the history of the development of the Crash Course has= contributed to it.

If there are "dialects&qu= ot; in the Course and everyone thinks they are fine then I won't delete= them.

However, when someone notices a problem and= suggests a solution or others suggest a solution then the solution is impl= emented.
E.g. recently following users' feedback I removed ex= perimental word {mi'ai} because users in general thought that it wasn&#= 39;t that useful.

If something else problematic is= discovered then it will be reflected as it HAS ALWAYS been so.
<= br>
When the number of issues drops to "not more than 1 issu= e once every two months" then IMO it will be time to call it "bet= a version" of the Course. But currently it's still a draft =C2=A0(= not that IMO any other courses in English are much more perfect).


=C2=A0
The fact that Gleki's course reduced i= ts egocentrism is an improved point, though his dictatorship will not stop = as long as he continues administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org.

You = simply don't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. no= t me. You as well can get an account there and put everything relevant to L= ojban you like.


I don't know about the whole adm= inistratorship on that server. However, at least your modifications on tool= s are all reflected on the web contents of lojban.o= rg.
(I don&= #39;t know why that folder is kept visible to public.)

=
=C2=A0
Actually the problem = occurred as I wrote to Gleki:

You as= well publish different unofficial resources on loj= ban.org

The only reason for me to publish it t= here was and is to provide a faster way of accessing them.



I only mod= ified pages of mediawiki with notes of "unofficial" when necessar= y, while you modified any tools on lojban.org a= s you like. You have the whole power on lojban.org<= /a> web contents

The folder mw.lojban.org/ext= ensions/ is visible because it was faster to access them by users.
By various reasons it's indeed better to move them to other hosti= ngs.
But I had no time for doing so.
The whole code is = open so everyone is free to do so.
DON'T COMPLAIN. INSTEAD DO= BETTER.


=
Again and again, you changed the subject and would not answer to my re= mark. I don't complain about what you teach in your personal beginner&#= 39;s course. My remark is about your dictatorship of freely changing the to= ols on official website for your personal contents. You abuse your authorit= y on official website for your personal contents. The tools on lojban.org d= on't contain any information about the responsibility of the tools them= selves, and then no one doubt that the tools are maintained by the official= body. The truth is that not the official body but you maintain the tools.= =C2=A0

I recommend that you maintain your tools as= you like outside of official website. Don't abuse your authority on th= e contents of lojban.org. I appreciate that you finally informed us of the = new page for ilmentufa parsers on lojban.github.io, where we all can join t= he maintenance and you cannot execute your dictatorship. Continue that way.=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------=_Part_7329_855426882.1454495084495-- ------=_Part_7328_226322656.1454495084495--