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[98.139.213.55]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g136si135336ywb.5.2016.02.08.14.21.38 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Feb 2016 14:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.55 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.213.55; Received: from [66.196.81.172] by nm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2016 22:21:38 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.205] by tm18.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2016 22:21:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2016 22:21:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 288344.93285.bm@omp1014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: hx0xAVgVM1lx4Ve3hu_MVSklZBvKYTgMC0lBPvbAX0fLGUaqfoxGPLZGxXLq3xT t4i4jkqMCGqa.10SWyHDVNuuVwQh33bAQzgsayrJH_o.GvrhwbRP0RF0Zy08Vgkw27TfYyuMv37g X5pLI1O9m0JHL70ISGCHo5VXgdC4WEkoPC6a.NJY1cMSfeU53rbyuwKq5VmtdffVUNbCoMrlGwv1 XRuPg7BpBACOQhB3rvIPsoPWM7bB_d6f6CB9g33qekJeij3Z_JUUGVlE3PszIYURYKe9xpqJ44xl hC0osdzsAVLjYZ5.2t83SmJNtZZAeAbbecoP1HzmnuKx2G0yH5mDGUpnfcIv7FerjePgzkbOQ0Fn O8RXjqKNIwnVeKqagCnz6KJwVblXPK9FIdrME.MNwVRWFLgDnmpmX5j7hjIyRYR2AoqjdI_yO9.p WJPO4wtzpQEGR2yLo9Gn4JTCQVzhNszBOd3B51I9S.uYheBM9XoL6XVJ9uWR0ULs7pIS4FfQxbJ5 jddZ5k9mcHoF9kfOX3A-- Received: by 66.196.80.147; Mon, 08 Feb 2016 22:21:37 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:21:37 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Message-ID: <1435833673.1183883.1454970097295.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20160208204030.GA13449@panix.com> References: <910695992.1046188.1454957099746.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <20160208204030.GA13449@panix.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Do Lojban and Loglan sound alike? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1183882_1892182051.1454970097290" Content-Length: 14861 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.55 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1183882_1892182051.1454970097290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice point. =C2=A0I haven't looked at Loglan in a while, but, when last I d= id, it had not expanded the ponological potentials of either compound words= or cmavo to the extent Lojban has. =C2=A0That would give Lojban a longer s= tretch between stresses even with the same number of words, depending on ho= w frequent such expansions were in actual use. =C2=A0=20 On Monday, February 8, 2016 2:40 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote: =20 Well, it would be interesting to see if fluent lojban contains a different= =20 distribution, or greater or lesser number, of cmavo; that could create a=20 different overall stress pattern. Also, different frequencies of longer lujvo and zi'evla could equally affect the stress patterns of the languages. mi'e la clakre On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 02:31:19PM -0600, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Exactly. That's why I specified "to a person who knows neither". >=20 > Aside from the apostrophe/h and more frequent sh/'c' sound, what's the re= al > difference? They have the same word shapes, basically the same sounds. Is > there any distinctive intonation pattern in either language? >=20 > stevo >=20 > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:44 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: >=20 > > It seems the question is about the general sound, not about individual > > sentences, which are obviously different, given the relex and all. > > > > > > > > On Monday, February 8, 2016 12:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > 2016-02-08 19:43 GMT+03:00 MorphemeAddict : > > > > It seems to me that, except for a few minor differences like long vowel= s > > and syllable-initial /h/, Loglan and Lojban should sound almost identic= al > > to a person who knows neither. Is this true, or is there a bigger > > difference I'm missing? > > > > > > They sound very different. > > > > Try the tool http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/naxle.htm= l > > > > and after typing something in Lojban press "Loglan < Lojban"=C2=A0 to t= ry > > automatic conversion to Loglan. although the conversion is not perfect = it > > can show you the difference. > > > > E.g. {mi prami do} =3D> {mi cluva tu}. > > > > > > stevo > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1183882_1892182051.1454970097290 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nice point.  I haven't look= ed at Loglan in a while, but, when last I did, it had not expanded the pono= logical potentials of either compound words or cmavo to the extent Lojban h= as.  That would give Lojban a longer stretch between stresses even wit= h the same number of words, depending on how frequent such expansions were = in actual use.  


On Monday, February 8, = 2016 2:40 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow <clakre@quandary.org> wrote:
<= /font>


Well, it would be int= eresting to see if fluent lojban contains a different
di= stribution, or greater or lesser number, of cmavo; that could create a
different overall stress pattern.

Also, different frequencies of longer lujvo and zi'evla could eq= ually
affect the stress patterns of the languages.

mi'e la clakre

On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 02:31:19PM -0600, MorphemeAddict wrote:> Exactly. That's why I specified "to a person who know= s neither".
>
> Aside from the a= postrophe/h and more frequent sh/'c' sound, what's the real
> difference? They have the same word shapes, basically the same soun= ds. Is
> there any distinctive intonation pattern in e= ither language?
>
> stevo
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:44 PM, '= John E Clifford' via lojban <
> lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > It seems the question is about the general sound, no= t about individual
> > sentences, which are obvious= ly different, given the relex and all.
> >
> >
> >
> >= On Monday, February 8, 2016 12:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <
> > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >= 2016-02-08 19:43 GMT+03:00 MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.= com>:
> >
> > It see= ms to me that, except for a few minor differences like long vowels
> > and syllable-initial /h/, Loglan and Lojban should soun= d almost identical
> > to a person who knows neithe= r. Is this true, or is there a bigger
> > differenc= e I'm missing?
> >
> >
> > They sound very different.
> &= gt;
> > Try the tool = http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/naxle.html
> >
> > and after typing something in = Lojban press "Loglan < Lojban"  to try
> > = automatic conversion to Loglan. although the conversion is not perfect it> > can show you the difference.
&= gt; >
> > E.g. {mi prami do} =3D> {mi cluva t= u}.
> >
> >
> > stevo
> > --
> &g= t; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s
> > "lojban" group.
> > T= o unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post = to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroup= s.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.g= oogle.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit= https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this messag= e because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> &g= t; "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this gro= up and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
> > To post to this group, send email t= o lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this messag= e because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> &g= t; "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this gro= up and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
> > To post to this group, send email t= o lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you = are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> = To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>= ; Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this mes= sage because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from i= t, send an email to lojban+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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