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[98.139.212.165]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v197si2018027ywa.1.2016.02.08.14.23.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Feb 2016 14:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.165 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.212.165; Received: from [98.139.170.178] by nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2016 22:23:14 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.249] by tm21.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2016 22:23:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1058.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2016 22:23:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 557218.99103.bm@omp1058.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 0KXLPoUVM1lOEF6T9DwhyJJk37XhuxwRoVnlWo.JbgKHvd2N31_md8oP50VstQ6 XbXZcc.bs6H2soNks40KIgZxyz.ADKvIxYn6msTHsUNNYJC4vQdz72jN2e4pdzf8p7R2w5swi72R MDE4LGWZgSkZ9hwTn_O9ADEVCw5C7eKG97vqa7s5T1s2sRpF3U2mG1GxQPfslIzywsJTOdYtJOPz 2icuBlKzR6F52aG4_A.0sIC5hEL5UaaIh45bwpe3YbUDC_TRF9jIOsTM4AA_fveumPuvjUO_cIJ0 KnOAHNViYHSRvr_nDnE9vbuJQvU31pauY60MANCC0rzhQFblS3d0GZ0tpDKH1x32LleV5lPxZVa4 IkQbMBa1117qWJ6Co8YG_kGjoMPDWyeqjWq2_IWoqmM5MuC0YqnJnxLZlPaj9C.P6nB7xTUjDUOc msqJqgdUlF0q7xSN6BEhIbM.qgBdU_0oqGxsJFU4YscDFE8fIPZJkJDxNmn0G1UuGONmIMoU3Zp9 L6m8trrg8p7cdhgganw-- Received: by 76.13.27.54; Mon, 08 Feb 2016 22:23:14 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:23:13 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Message-ID: <1846035185.1218659.1454970193700.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1435833673.1183883.1454970097295.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <910695992.1046188.1454957099746.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <20160208204030.GA13449@panix.com> <1435833673.1183883.1454970097295.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Do Lojban and Loglan sound alike? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1218658_684052142.1454970193689" Content-Length: 18434 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.165 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1218658_684052142.1454970193689 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course, the issue of which of the several Lojbans we are talking about m= ight also play a significant role. =C2=A0 =20 On Monday, February 8, 2016 4:21 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: =20 Nice point. =C2=A0I haven't looked at Loglan in a while, but, when last I = did, it had not expanded the ponological potentials of either compound word= s or cmavo to the extent Lojban has. =C2=A0That would give Lojban a longer = stretch between stresses even with the same number of words, depending on h= ow frequent such expansions were in actual use. =C2=A0=20 On Monday, February 8, 2016 2:40 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote: =20 Well, it would be interesting to see if fluent lojban contains a different= =20 distribution, or greater or lesser number, of cmavo; that could create a=20 different overall stress pattern. Also, different frequencies of longer lujvo and zi'evla could equally affect the stress patterns of the languages. mi'e la clakre On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 02:31:19PM -0600, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Exactly. That's why I specified "to a person who knows neither". >=20 > Aside from the apostrophe/h and more frequent sh/'c' sound, what's the re= al > difference? They have the same word shapes, basically the same sounds. Is > there any distinctive intonation pattern in either language? >=20 > stevo >=20 > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:44 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: >=20 > > It seems the question is about the general sound, not about individual > > sentences, which are obviously different, given the relex and all. > > > > > > > > On Monday, February 8, 2016 12:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > 2016-02-08 19:43 GMT+03:00 MorphemeAddict : > > > > It seems to me that, except for a few minor differences like long vowel= s > > and syllable-initial /h/, Loglan and Lojban should sound almost identic= al > > to a person who knows neither. Is this true, or is there a bigger > > difference I'm missing? > > > > > > They sound very different. > > > > Try the tool http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/naxle.htm= l > > > > and after typing something in Lojban press "Loglan < Lojban"=C2=A0 to t= ry > > automatic conversion to Loglan. although the conversion is not perfect = it > > can show you the difference. > > > > E.g. {mi prami do} =3D> {mi cluva tu}. > > > > > > stevo > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1218658_684052142.1454970193689 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Of course, the issue of which of= the several Lojbans we are talking about might also play a significant rol= e.  


= On Monday, February 8, 2016 4:21 PM, 'John= E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Nice point.  I haven't lo= oked at Loglan in a while, but, when last I did, it had not expanded the po= nological potentials of either compound words or cmavo to the extent Lojban= has.  That would give Lojban a longer stretch between stresses even w= ith the same number of words, depending on how frequent such expansions wer= e in actual use.  


On Monday, February 8, 2016 2:40 PM, Amanda Babcock= Furrow <clakre@quandary.org> wrote:
=

Well, it would be interesting to see if fluent lojban contains a d= ifferent
distribution, or greater or lesser number, of c= mavo; that could create a
different overall stress patte= rn.

Also, different frequencies of lon= ger lujvo and zi'evla could equally
affect the stress pat= terns of the languages.

mi'e la clakre=

On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 02:31:19PM -0= 600, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> Exactly. That's why I spe= cified "to a person who knows neither".
>
> Aside from the apostrophe/h and more frequent sh/'c' sound, wha= t's the real
> difference? They have the same word sha= pes, basically the same sounds. Is
> there any distinc= tive intonation pattern in either language?
>
> stevo
>
> On Mon= , Feb 8, 2016 at 12:44 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
> lojba= n@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> > It seems the question is about the general sound, not about indi= vidual
> > sentences, which are obviously different= , given the relex and all.
> >
&g= t; >
> >
> > On Monday, = February 8, 2016 12:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <
> > = gleki.is= .my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-02-08 19:43 GMT+03:00 MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>:> >
> > It seems to me that, = except for a few minor differences like long vowels
> = > and syllable-initial /h/, Loglan and Lojban should sound almost identi= cal
> > to a person who knows neither. Is this true= , or is there a bigger
> > difference I'm missing?<= br clear=3D"none">> >
> >
&= gt; > They sound very different.
> >
> > Try the tool http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/naxle.html
> >
> > and after typing something = in Lojban press "Loglan < Lojban"  to try
> &g= t; automatic conversion to Loglan. although the conversion is not perfect i= t
> > can show you the difference.
> >
> > E.g. {mi prami do} =3D> {mi cluv= a tu}.
> >
> >
> > stevo
> > --
>= > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups
> > "lojban" group.
> >= ; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroup= s.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.g= oogle.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit= https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

> >
> >
> > --
> > = You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups> > "lojban" group.
> > To u= nsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.co= m/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https:/= /groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
= > >
> > --
> > You re= ceived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubsc= ribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://gro= ups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>=
> --
> You received this messa= ge because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails fro= m it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br clear=3D"none">> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/= optout.

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.<= br clear=3D"none">


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