Received: from mail-qk0-f187.google.com ([209.85.220.187]:33290) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aUn4G-000776-9i for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:09:52 -0800 Received: by mail-qk0-f187.google.com with SMTP id e124sf29297743qkc.0 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:09:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Pt0rfX1vxyXsxP6AsJjAXlaSA0g2nnq9w8emNO+/2cw=; b=ie42t02SNDzfVWdLFcXYbN57ZiA/APZZMbE7IX27do2DszgfErHrU354tLQiPXYeZ1 xiIvqa6HnQYdym0cwZ6mMAmVBEAHkC/iHU4qertM2IWGahnptF1VQ8GESSlxgLrOIvTF S6XR0VlTBahU3eiDuVt3ZP+uhJnRgRsdg/gVl3ZP2WzW8T+iPWkQB1n5f0H9/k4+iQb3 2XOgjzER3EEsFLTEbBYS0jDxikeNQ7CnxUPSYmoog/plQ8GQYxExS1vMv8gjBow89VzK /19IvysvmEgHVNmLh+Z6ikwvCtWq3mE+vqEuHHid2xPUnISzZk3dyFDa1uZy/A68uxlH NdKA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Pt0rfX1vxyXsxP6AsJjAXlaSA0g2nnq9w8emNO+/2cw=; b=gJFuPgzGXjWHij9dI0CO/Oog8Rgb7Ja+Yh0H+0QB6L/oOs3zuVJatftER1JeaQQpU7 Wu+HmRIhfVu6AN0VCS1Sb/1F4Zqcw0xQW/ENMwfjJD4cgOyL6p0jymJs283n12Fp4PAp SIe4w94mr5zrzaiMivLA3FqmOe9IfpamxbZLqr8TgoVFpTmTR2XQbcaCpZfaKIWnnPHZ Lq0/K6b9vEE0QbnFpMUkV8YhTIdngIuUEg7H5ADn5zEy0rdqN0NoZZxUEcguA8vDu6nI 1HidjQPiSe/tYb6uyMXWnYf+xRKfWnVfj22ZsftIgsYWc0cP3KiTitqDl0k1pJFQ0G8a 53ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=Pt0rfX1vxyXsxP6AsJjAXlaSA0g2nnq9w8emNO+/2cw=; b=kS9lwLMTWJNC00BBLovvI4HCqy3ZZLTYq0PUzYFVNZ2tcMyby0xvjL/yMhRz26/QHW FFvakXMBOokyehc4ll+lFQyPf0oCqh27QyeaSal+bC9CmoOUyfZAWPfTs2REmBkyngWA rfi10BEch1VwPSokiysySHVaPrE4mhojIujQUXJaTNQ+bQBDyUd3Yw6/Dv/XPm8mknOR kZUOHEj2DFqYzULQRJUO3CSpvkwrw7eRtjP4ZnT7i1wd7U44+4QsNGAt54iEV4f3XiQh zSOUV6DhJZ1Dg0Ygnfd1E/QFxTkAWdYs0mdnJa9nHnT2UeqY2rQMFN7EPSkAxh7b5qgG C0+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOT7f9tC6TF1gpW7ABNMJaMvJWiEV891UqKj7fd8QNZckIH7ATzSpBFpXf7H1gkfkA== X-Received: by 10.140.92.196 with SMTP id b62mr118399qge.10.1455419382391; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:09:42 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.86.102 with SMTP id o93ls2126802qgd.16.gmail; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:09:40 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.104.15 with SMTP id z15mr118154qge.19.1455419380826; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:09:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 19:09:39 -0800 (PST) From: Andrew To: lojban Cc: timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de> <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com> <56A51A50.7030306@gmx.de> ,<98c49151-ad46-447d-84c3-3c121c4210ef@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2623_402292131.1455419380105" X-Original-Sender: summerfallsaway@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_2623_402292131.1455419380105 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2624_1327153830.1455419380106" ------=_Part_2624_1327153830.1455419380106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This email thread went quiet for a while, but it seems we haven't given up thinking about this issue. I think it would be good for current and possible future readers of this email thread to summarize outside discussions on: - We're considering starting a GitHub to track changes and issues with the dictionary. - la jbovlaste should perhaps be replaced, rewritten from scratch, rather than simply revise. - And we're looking into XML-based or other formats used by linguists to encode this sort of data. So, there's *some* progress. Any corrections, or other updates? ~Andrew / cemjig On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:31:26 AM UTC-8, Timothy Lawrence wrote: > > I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :) > > > Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community uses > for coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, > GitHub etc.? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* loj...@googlegroups.com > on behalf of Andrew > > *Sent:* Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM > *To:* lojban > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary > needs clearer, more detailed entries > > mungojelly/selckiku: > >> you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will >> mean they don't exist. >> > > *What?* To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from making > up new words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if that's > what you're getting at. New words are made up all the time -- we then add > them to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn > and use those new words. I don't know what to say about supposed valsi that > exist but which do not appear in the dictionary... except that if they are > really part of the language, then those undefined valsi *should be > defined too.* How else would new people learn the full language? > > Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical > to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how > best to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least > generally agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining the > full meaning of the brivla. If we agree on that much, *then we should do > a better job* explaining the brivla. If this were truly an impractical > task, then lojban is doomed to obscurity forever. However, I would argue > that updating the dictionary is perfectly doable if we can just agree that > it's necessary, and agree on how to do it. > > The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more > feasible if we first made sure that all *new* words fill out our template > for a more detailed brivla definition. Then we only have to worry about > updating the entries that have already made it into the dictionary: a > large, but finite number. > > Am I being clear? Does this makes sense? > > ~Andrew / cemjig > > > > On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote: >> > >> > Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition >> template >> > for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new >> lujvo >> > into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, >> but it >> > doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this more >> > complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of >> words to >> > review. >> >> na'i >> >> You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will >> mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of >> unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the >> words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less >> useful to someone trying to understand the real language. >> >> <3, >> mungojelly/selckiku >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2624_1327153830.1455419380106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This email thread went quiet for a while, but it seems we = haven't given up thinking about this issue. I think it would be good fo= r current and possible future readers of this email thread to summarize out= side discussions on:
  • We're considering starting a GitHub to = track changes and issues with the dictionary.
  • la jbovlaste should p= erhaps be replaced, rewritten from scratch, rather than simply revise.
    • =
  • And we're looking into XML-based or other formats used by linguists= to encode this sort of data.
So, there's some progress= . Any corrections, or other updates?

~Andrew / cemjig


On = Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:31:26 AM UTC-8, Timothy Lawrence wrote:

I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :)<= /p>


Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community use= s for coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, Git= Hub etc.?

=C2=A0
From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.= com> on behalf of Andrew <summerf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary= needs clearer, more detailed entries
=C2=A0
mungojelly/selckiku:
you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
mean they don't exist.
=C2=A0
What? To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from = making up new words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if= that's what you're getting at. New words are made up all the time = -- we then add them to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn and use those new words. I don&#= 39;t know what to say about supposed valsi that exist but which do not appe= ar in the dictionary... except that if they are really part of the language= , then those undefined valsi should be defined too. How else would new people learn the full lang= uage?

Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical = to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how bes= t to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least generally= agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining the full meaning of the brivla. If we agree on = that much, then we should do a better job explaining the brivla. If this were t= ruly an impractical task, then lojban is doomed to obscurity forever. Howev= er, I would argue that updating the dictionary is perfectly doable if we ca= n just agree that it's necessary, and agree on how to do it.

The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more feasibl= e if we first made sure that all new words fill out our template for a more detailed brivla definitio= n. Then we only have to worry about updating the entries that have already = made it into the dictionary: a large, but finite number.

Am I being clear? Does this makes sense?

~Andrew / cemjig



On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew <summerf...@= gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition tem= plate
> for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new= lujvo
> into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, b= ut it
> doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this = more
> complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of wor= ds to
> review.

na'i

You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of
unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the
words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less
useful to someone trying to understand the real language.

<3,
mungojelly/selckiku

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojba= n+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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