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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w10si273240wmw.3.2016.02.13.22.41.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Feb 2016 22:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::233; Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id b205so29938999wmb.1 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 22:41:27 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.184.139 with SMTP id eu11mr11279543wjc.169.1455432086941; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 22:41:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.91.210 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Feb 2016 22:40:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de> <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com> <56A51A50.7030306@gmx.de> <98c49151-ad46-447d-84c3-3c121c4210ef@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 09:40:47 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6d9c008975a5052bb530f0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b6d9c008975a5052bb530f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-02-14 6:09 GMT+03:00 Andrew : > This email thread went quiet for a while, but it seems we haven't given up > thinking about this issue. I think it would be good for current and > possible future readers of this email thread to summarize outside > discussions on: > > - We're considering starting a GitHub to track changes and issues with > the dictionary. > > Please note that jbovlaste has wonderful features that Github itself won't support out of the box. What is needed is at least a new database using which people can add definitions they like and in dialects of English and other languages they like. One proposal for the new db structure was here https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 For now we might only need API for that since for sure some people wouldn't like default frontend made for it no matter what it would be. > - la jbovlaste should perhaps be replaced, rewritten from scratch, > rather than simply revise. > - And we're looking into XML-based or other formats used by linguists > to encode this sort of data. > > So, there's *some* progress. Any corrections, or other updates? > > ~Andrew / cemjig > > > On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:31:26 AM UTC-8, Timothy Lawrence wrote: >> >> I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :) >> >> >> Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community uses >> for coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, >> GitHub etc.? >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* loj...@googlegroups.com on behalf of >> Andrew >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM >> *To:* lojban >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary >> needs clearer, more detailed entries >> >> mungojelly/selckiku: >> >>> you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will >>> mean they don't exist. >>> >> >> *What?* To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from making >> up new words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if that's >> what you're getting at. New words are made up all the time -- we then add >> them to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn >> and use those new words. I don't know what to say about supposed valsi that >> exist but which do not appear in the dictionary... except that if they are >> really part of the language, then those undefined valsi *should be >> defined too.* How else would new people learn the full language? >> >> Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be >> practical to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or >> else, how best to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at >> least generally agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining >> the full meaning of the brivla. If we agree on that much, *then we >> should do a better job* explaining the brivla. If this were truly an >> impractical task, then lojban is doomed to obscurity forever. However, I >> would argue that updating the dictionary is perfectly doable if we can just >> agree that it's necessary, and agree on how to do it. >> >> The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more >> feasible if we first made sure that all *new* words fill out our >> template for a more detailed brivla definition. Then we only have to worry >> about updating the entries that have already made it into the dictionary: a >> large, but finite number. >> >> Am I being clear? Does this makes sense? >> >> ~Andrew / cemjig >> >> >> >> On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote: >>> > >>> > Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition >>> template >>> > for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new >>> lujvo >>> > into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, >>> but it >>> > doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this more >>> > complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of >>> words to >>> > review. >>> >>> na'i >>> >>> You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will >>> mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of >>> unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the >>> words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less >>> useful to someone trying to understand the real language. >>> >>> <3, >>> mungojelly/selckiku >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b6d9c008975a5052bb530f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-02-14 6:09 GMT+03:00 Andrew <summerfallsaway@gmail.com>:
This email thread went q= uiet for a while, but it seems we haven't given up thinking about this = issue. I think it would be good for current and possible future readers of = this email thread to summarize outside discussions on:
  • We're= considering starting a GitHub to track changes and issues with the diction= ary.

Please note that jbovl= aste has wonderful features that Github itself won't support out of the= box.

What is needed is at least a new database us= ing which people can add definitions they like and in dialects of English a= nd other languages they like.

For now we might only need API for that since for sure some people wouldn= 't like default frontend made for it no matter what it would be.
<= div>
  • la jbovlaste should= perhaps be replaced, rewritten from scratch, rather than simply revise.
  • And we're looking into XML-based or other formats used by linguis= ts to encode this sort of data.
So, there's some progre= ss. Any corrections, or other updates?

~Andrew / cemjig


On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:31:26 AM UTC-8, Timot= hy Lawrence wrote:

I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :)<= /p>


Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community use= s for coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, Git= Hub etc.?

=C2=A0
From: loj...@googlegroups.co= m <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of = Andrew <summerf...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary= needs clearer, more detailed entries
=C2=A0
mungojelly/selckiku:
you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
mean they don't exist.
=C2=A0
What? To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from = making up new words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if= that's what you're getting at. New words are made up all the time = -- we then add them to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn and use those new words. I don&#= 39;t know what to say about supposed valsi that exist but which do not appe= ar in the dictionary... except that if they are really part of the language= , then those undefined valsi should be defined too. How else would new people learn the full lang= uage?

Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical = to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how bes= t to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least generally= agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining the full meaning of the brivla. If we agree on = that much, then we should do a better job explaining the brivla. If this were t= ruly an impractical task, then lojban is doomed to obscurity forever. Howev= er, I would argue that updating the dictionary is perfectly doable if we ca= n just agree that it's necessary, and agree on how to do it.

The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more feasibl= e if we first made sure that all new words fill out our template for a more detailed brivla definitio= n. Then we only have to worry about updating the entries that have already = made it into the dictionary: a large, but finite number.

Am I being clear? Does this makes sense?

~Andrew / cemjig



On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew <summerf...@= gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition tem= plate
> for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new= lujvo
> into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, b= ut it
> doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this = more
> complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of wor= ds to
> review.

na'i

You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of
unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the
words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less
useful to someone trying to understand the real language.

<3,
mungojelly/selckiku

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b6d9c008975a5052bb530f0--