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[65.55.169.68]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k15si876459igt.3.2016.02.14.21.21.01 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Feb 2016 21:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 65.55.169.68 as permitted sender) client-ip=65.55.169.68; Received: from BY1PR01MB1386.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.162.211.148) by BY1PR01MB1386.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.162.211.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.409.10; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 05:20:59 +0000 Received: from BY1PR01MB1386.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.162.211.148]) by BY1PR01MB1386.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.162.211.148]) with mapi id 15.01.0409.015; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 05:20:59 +0000 From: Timothy Lawrence To: Andrew , lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries Thread-Topic: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries Thread-Index: AQHRU0bKvZYi0uujUUir+pxQktA3kJ8EX3+AgABuXYCAAOaEAIABl0CugACUgYCAAGtOPYACuwwAgAIRHQCAAB9KgIABm44AgAB/dvqAG7HUgIABoEZf Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 05:20:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de> <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com> <56A51A50.7030306@gmx.de> ,<98c49151-ad46-447d-84c3-3c121c4210ef@googlegroups.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [14.2.251.81] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;BY1PR01MB1386;5:U7oT37m03WqIHVTRM7Pl4A9Hd6rxtMyNn9+RP6FX+1ESANYilcB/cwMxPGvy6N2Shzp1QWX4ArupxXuvsoGf/BJWHTfZ6DIWENbh2i0joZp+E5s35MPZ9nSGVS8E5drbQXdjs+CdyH9cNZqricRQ8Q==;24:3TJo9ATQvv7K8tLxRQ7g8MIHE6gY1px80CUQThiSVttNZtF+qV823vyMe/75nh303HAyCng8wCV9yOd9mj9gq7cenm9mNZs5L1Quv2rM8Jw= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(42134001)(42139001)(42142116001);SRVR:BY1PR01MB1386; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d9780bf0-bbbf-4007-de99-08d335c7ca3c x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046);SRVR:BY1PR01MB1386;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR01MB1386; x-forefront-prvs: 08534B37A7 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10009020)(24454002)(377454003)(5008740100001)(19617315012)(586003)(50986999)(66066001)(189998001)(19627405001)(19625215002)(5004730100002)(93886004)(33656002)(74482002)(19580405001)(88552002)(122556002)(74316001)(40100003)(16236675004)(5001960100002)(1220700001)(86362001)(5003600100002)(2950100001)(19580395003)(6116002)(11100500001)(107886002)(77096005)(15975445007)(92566002)(5002640100001)(102836003)(3846002)(3900700001)(5001770100001)(2900100001)(1096002)(54356999)(10400500002)(76176999)(2906002)(87936001);DIR:OUT;SFP:1101;SCL:1;SRVR:BY1PR01MB1386;H:BY1PR01MB1386.prod.exchangelabs.com;FPR:;SPF:None;MLV:sfv;LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY1PR01MB13860F83C47A74C6A60E3814EBAC0BY1PR01MB1386prod_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: connect.qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Feb 2016 05:20:59.4778 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR01MB1386 X-Original-Sender: timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 65.55.169.68 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --_000_BY1PR01MB13860F83C47A74C6A60E3814EBAC0BY1PR01MB1386prod_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other webpage) t= hat explains each word in context with its grammatical category.* (For me, = the smaller "grammar words" are a higher priority than gismu etc.) For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "zi" really only makes an= y sense if one has already read http://www.lojban.org/publications/referenc= e_grammar/chapter10.html I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I can't unders= tand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained well on jbovlaste. It= 's too difficult for me to read through the entire CLL (and I've been disco= uraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back. Jbovlaste needs "on-demand" learning like this - to me, that's what a dicti= onary is for. *Alternatively, just insert the explanation directly, but I think inserting= the link should be easy to begin with. ________________________________ From: Andrew Sent: Sunday, 14 February 2016 1:09 PM To: lojban Cc: Timothy Lawrence Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs = clearer, more detailed entries This email thread went quiet for a while, but it seems we haven't given up = thinking about this issue. I think it would be good for current and possibl= e future readers of this email thread to summarize outside discussions on: * We're considering starting a GitHub to track changes and issues with = the dictionary. * la jbovlaste should perhaps be replaced, rewritten from scratch, rath= er than simply revise. * And we're looking into XML-based or other formats used by linguists t= o encode this sort of data. So, there's some progress. Any corrections, or other updates? ~Andrew / cemjig On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:31:26 AM UTC-8, Timothy Lawrence wrote: I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :) Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community uses f= or coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, GitHub= etc.? ________________________________ From: loj...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Andrew= Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs = clearer, more detailed entries mungojelly/selckiku: you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will mean they don't exist. What? To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from making up n= ew words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if that's wha= t you're getting at. New words are made up all the time -- we then add them= to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn and= use those new words. I don't know what to say about supposed valsi that ex= ist but which do not appear in the dictionary... except that if they are re= ally part of the language, then those undefined valsi should be defined too= . How else would new people learn the full language? Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical = to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how bes= t to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least generally= agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining the full meanin= g of the brivla. If we agree on that much, then we should do a better job e= xplaining the brivla. If this were truly an impractical task, then lojban i= s doomed to obscurity forever. However, I would argue that updating the dic= tionary is perfectly doable if we can just agree that it's necessary, and a= gree on how to do it. The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more feasibl= e if we first made sure that all new words fill out our template for a more= detailed brivla definition. Then we only have to worry about updating the = entries that have already made it into the dictionary: a large, but finite = number. Am I being clear? Does this makes sense? ~Andrew / cemjig On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote: On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew wrote: > > Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition templa= te > for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new lu= jvo > into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, but = it > doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this more > complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of words = to > review. na'i You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less useful to someone trying to understand the real language. <3, mungojelly/selckiku -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_BY1PR01MB13860F83C47A74C6A60E3814EBAC0BY1PR01MB1386prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As a user, I would like links to the re= levant CLL page (or other webpage) that explains each word i= n context with its grammatical category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a = higher priority than gismu etc.)


For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "zi&q= uot; really only makes any sense if one has already read http:/= /www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html


I'm struggling trying to read real-world&n= bsp;Lojban text because I can't understand the grammatical constructs = that aren't explained well on jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entire CLL (and I've been discouraged by it being out-of-dat= e) front-to-back.

Jbovlaste needs "on-demand"= learning like this - to me, that's what a dictionary is for.


*Alternatively, just insert the expla= nation directly, but I think inserting the link should be easy to begin wit= h.


From: Andrew <summerfall= saway@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, 14 February 2016 1:09 PM
To: lojban
Cc: Timothy Lawrence
Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary= needs clearer, more detailed entries
 
This email thread went quiet for a while, but it seems we = haven't given up thinking about this issue. I think it would be good for cu= rrent and possible future readers of this email thread to summarize outside= discussions on:
  • We're considering starting a GitHub to track changes and issues with th= e dictionary.
  • la jbovlaste should perhaps be replaced, rewritten fr= om scratch, rather than simply revise.
  • And we're looking into XML-b= ased or other formats used by linguists to encode this sort of data.
    • So, there's some progress. Any corrections, or other updates?

    ~Andrew / cemjig


    On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:31:26 AM UTC-8, Timothy Lawrence wrote:

    I believe that is clear and sensible and I agree with that direction :)<= /p>


    Is there a governance / task-tracking tool that the Lojban community use= s for coordinating projects like this? Phabricator, Redmine, BitBucket, Git= Hub etc.?

     
    From: loj...@googlegroups.com= <loj...@googlegroups.co= m> on behalf of Andrew <summerf...@gmail.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2016 2:37 PM
    To: lojban
    Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary= needs clearer, more detailed entries
     
    mungojelly/selckiku:
    you seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
    mean they don't exist.
     
    What? To be clear, I'm certainly not trying to stop people from maki= ng up new words, nor am I trying to slow down the creation of words, if tha= t's what you're getting at. New words are made up all the time -- we then a= dd them to the dictionary to clarify their meaning and to help others to learn and use those new words. I don't= know what to say about supposed valsi that exist but which do not appear i= n the dictionary... except that if they are really part of the language, th= en those undefined valsi should be defined too. How else would new people learn the full lang= uage?

    Most of our discussion so far has been about whether it would be practical = to actually try to update all entries in the dictionary -- or else, how bes= t to implement such a plan. From this, I assumed that we at least generally= agree that the dictionary could do a better job explaining the full meaning of the brivla. If we agree on = that much, then we should do a better job explaining the brivla. If this were t= ruly an impractical task, then lojban is doomed to obscurity forever. Howev= er, I would argue that updating the dictionary is perfectly doable if we ca= n just agree that it's necessary, and agree on how to do it.

    The task of actually updating the complete dictionary would be more feasibl= e if we first made sure that all new words fill out our template for a more detailed brivla definitio= n. Then we only have to worry about updating the entries that have already = made it into the dictionary: a large, but finite number.

    Am I being clear? Does this makes sense?

    ~Andrew / cemjig



    On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-8, la stela selckiku wrote:
    On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Andrew <summerf...@= gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > Probably the first step, then, should be to enforce the definition tem= plate
    > for all new words. Currently, I believe, the web form for entering new= lujvo
    > into la jbovlaste encourages notes about the meanings of each sumti, b= ut it
    > doesn't require it. If all new words suddenly had to fill in this more=
    > complete template, it would assure that we have a finite number of wor= ds to
    > review.

    na'i

    You seem to be assuming that not putting words in the dictionary will
    mean they don't exist. Lojban is a living language with lots of
    unrecorded words of every sort. Minimizing rather than maximizing the
    words included in a dictionary would make that dictionary far less
    useful to someone trying to understand the real language.

    <3,
    mungojelly/selckiku

    --
    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
    To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
    To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
    Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
    For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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