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Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs
 clearer, more detailed entries
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From: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
Message-ID: <56C19750.2000006@lojban.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 04:16:00 -0500
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On 2/15/2016 12:20 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other
> webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical
> category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a higher priority
> than gismu etc.)
>
>
> For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "zi" really only makes
> any sense if one has already read
> http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html
>
>
> I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I can't
> understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained well on
> jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entire CLL (and
> I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back.


When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose 
was to do precisely what you are asking for.  For a decade before that, 
I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a 
dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary entries 
for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to).

byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out 
there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation 
of each word in context with its grammatical category.  Find the 
relevant pages and your needs are met.

Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it 
is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage.  And 
the volunteers became bored and distracted.  byfy slowly declined in 
productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time.

And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition.  If 
jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary 
definitions and not grammatical explanation.  It's not an easy problem 
to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure what 
solution would satisfy everyone.  Take a look at a dictionary definition 
for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" might be a could one, because 
English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive and 
describing that definitionally is difficult.

in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that it should 
discourage you.  If you learn the language as described, you'll almost 
certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they 
are mostly minor.  Remember that most of the people who have learned the 
language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will 
likely be true for years even after a revision is published.  Partly due 
to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of the 
language significantly different from that described in the current CLL.

lojbab

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