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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w197si728723wmw.3.2016.02.15.22.36.54 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::230; Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id g62so176704001wme.0 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:36:54 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.28.194.68 with SMTP id s65mr15853120wmf.65.1455604614457; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:36:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.91.210 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:36:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de> <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com> <56A51A50.7030306@gmx.de> <98c49151-ad46-447d-84c3-3c121c4210ef@googlegroups.com> <56C19750.2000006@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:36:14 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b095cfa6eaa052bdd5b3b X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114b095cfa6eaa052bdd5b3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-02-16 1:59 GMT+03:00 Andrew : > I forgot to mention that the proposals I mentioned in my last email were > actually *not* my ideas, that I was just summarzing some of the > discussion I saw while "lurking" on IRC. I do like the idea of using > GitHub, or something similar, though. I think we need some kind of online > tool to help us collaborate on this project, something which will help us > keep track of ongoing issues and so on. It doesn't have to be GitHub > necessarily, but we are already using GitHub to track the cleanup and > development of the CLL, so I think GitHub would be a sensible choice. > > gleki said: > >> >> Please note that jbovlaste has wonderful features that Github itself >> won't support out of the box... >> > > That's a fair point: Whether we ultimately decide to replace or merely > revise la jbovlaste, it would be helpful to make note of the good features > we would like to *keep*. For instance, I think it sort of interesting > that the different dictionary interfaces -- like vlasisku and sutysisku -- > are able to share common data on the backend but present a different user > interface. Which features were you thinking of, gleki? > https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 This is a dirty explanation of how i envision the db. If you want to use github as a database that would be fine of course although strange. This of course wouldn't eliminate the need in an API backend interacting with both frontends and the database. > > I think Timothy Lawrence and la lojbab are both right about cmavo in the > dictionary: Learning cmavo and how they really work is essential to > learning the *structure* of the language, and a detailed explanation of > the grammar of the cmavo is probably outside the scope of a dictionary. > However, the cmavo dictionary entries, just like the gismu, could still use > some clearing up, and links to relevant sections of the CLL seems > appropriate. Some entries, in fact, *already* link to the CLL. I'm sure > online English dictionaries would do the same, if there were a such thing > as a Complete English Language book! > > Thanks, > ~Andrew / cemjig > > On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:16:02 AM UTC-8, lojbab wrote: >> >> On 2/15/2016 12:20 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote: >> > As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other >> > webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical >> > category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a higher priority >> > than gismu etc.) >> > >> > >> > For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "zi" really only >> makes >> > any sense if one has already read >> > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html >> > >> > >> > I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I can't >> > understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained well on >> > jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entire CLL >> (and >> > I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back. >> >> >> When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose >> was to do precisely what you are asking for. For a decade before that, >> I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a >> dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary entries >> for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to). >> >> byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out >> there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation >> of each word in context with its grammatical category. Find the >> relevant pages and your needs are met. >> >> Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it >> is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage. And >> the volunteers became bored and distracted. byfy slowly declined in >> productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time. >> >> And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition. If >> jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary >> definitions and not grammatical explanation. It's not an easy problem >> to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure what >> solution would satisfy everyone. Take a look at a dictionary definition >> for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" might be a could one, because >> English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive and >> describing that definitionally is difficult. >> >> in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that it should >> discourage you. If you learn the language as described, you'll almost >> certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they >> are mostly minor. Remember that most of the people who have learned the >> language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will >> likely be true for years even after a revision is published. Partly due >> to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of the >> language significantly different from that described in the current CLL. >> >> lojbab >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114b095cfa6eaa052bdd5b3b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-02-16 1:59 GMT+03:00 Andrew <summerfallsaway@gmail.com>:
I forgot to mention that= the proposals I mentioned in my last email were actually not my ide= as, that I was just summarzing some of the discussion I saw while "lur= king" on IRC. I do like the idea of using GitHub, or something similar= , though. I think we need some kind of online tool to help us collaborate o= n this project, something which will help us keep track of ongoing issues a= nd so on. It doesn't have to be GitHub necessarily, but we are already = using GitHub to track the cleanup and development of the CLL, so I think Gi= tHub would be a sensible choice.

gleki said:
=C2=A0
Please note that jbovlaste has wonderful features that Github itsel= f won't support out of the box...

That's= a fair point: Whether we ultimately decide to replace or merely revise la = jbovlaste, it would be helpful to make note of the good features we would l= ike to keep. For instance, I think it sort of interesting that the d= ifferent dictionary interfaces -- like vlasisku and sutysisku -- are able t= o share common data on the backend but present a different user interface. = Which features were you thinking of, gleki?


This is a dirty explanation of how i envision the db.
If you wa= nt to use github as a database that would be fine of course although strang= e. This of course wouldn't eliminate the need in an API backend interac= ting with both frontends and the database.
=C2=A0

I think Timothy Lawrence and la lojbab are= both right about cmavo in the dictionary: Learning cmavo and how they real= ly work is essential to learning the structure of the language, and = a detailed explanation of the grammar of the cmavo is probably outside the = scope of a dictionary. However, the cmavo dictionary entries, just like the= gismu, could still use some clearing up, and links to relevant sections of= the CLL seems appropriate. Some entries, in fact, already link to t= he CLL. I'm sure online English dictionaries would do the same, if ther= e were a such thing as a Complete English Language book!

Thanks,
= ~Andrew / cemjig

On Monday, February 15= , 2016 at 1:16:02 AM UTC-8, lojbab wrote:
On 2/15/2016 12:2= 0 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other
> webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical
> category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a hi= gher priority
> than gismu etc.)
>
>
> For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "= zi" really only makes
> any sense if one has already read
> http://www.lojban.org/publ= ications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html
>
>
> I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I= can't
> understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained we= ll on
> jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entir= e CLL (and
> I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back.


When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose= =20
was to do precisely what you are asking for.=C2=A0 For a decade before = that,=20
I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a= =20
dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary en= tries=20
for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to).

byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out=20
there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation= =20
of each word in context with its grammatical category.=C2=A0 Find the= =20
relevant pages and your needs are met.

Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it= =20
is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage.=C2=A0= And=20
the volunteers became bored and distracted. =C2=A0byfy slowly declined = in=20
productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time.

And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition.=C2= =A0 If=20
jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary=20
definitions and not grammatical explanation.=C2=A0 It's not an easy= problem=20
to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure wha= t=20
solution would satisfy everyone.=C2=A0 Take a look at a dictionary defi= nition=20
for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" migh= t be a could one, because=20
English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive a= nd=20
describing that definitionally is difficult.

in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that= it should=20
discourage you.=C2=A0 If you learn the language as described, you'l= l almost=20
certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they= =20
are mostly minor.=C2=A0 Remember that most of the people who have learn= ed the=20
language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will=20
likely be true for years even after a revision is published.=C2=A0 Part= ly due=20
to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of t= he=20
language significantly different from that described in the current CLL= .

lojbab

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a114b095cfa6eaa052bdd5b3b--