Received: from mail-pf0-f184.google.com ([209.85.192.184]:33544) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aVp6k-0000ju-DL for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:32:42 -0800 Received: by mail-pf0-f184.google.com with SMTP id w128sf38401799pfb.0 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:32:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ISgSO6+9ubVSP659KJC2USYq5ICIcrqg4bIrLR5N/wA=; b=MJAd8e4C1AOLVHGp7nv/vU3Cxdt1oDnl4MLbNEQ4/qgLvLY/1JCteMg2S57sxc6suQ z9D+KuDpwRCOfE30MDhC2VM3AXC1+C5NfQ9Mmz7tnFGxtY79YlqM84oqpspmt9N8hgCm ltYgpLH74j669txIjpDQKU5463Cs99qb0D55p5Sn3104e6Jph+81mDW1r+r/ebBGtrXp gtfpJ1KUj9jgWPMKNuTVhZOKfNyG2qxqfiOnn9vpy/5SnZSao8vDr/NAMtEdSdX/cckP Q7B8CZrptFSvzl8wzMPOE5hEaKykWBg2Dl7gwYHFFtlxw4ZFsFV4LDcFLeW866BPve4W DabQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ISgSO6+9ubVSP659KJC2USYq5ICIcrqg4bIrLR5N/wA=; b=CPG9ks2ob7xxHIrl8vVWOVCe2l2jfE2ny0rGsuSZ0Da1FwwzU/PSaQRaWjI3zbXFEK hgB2oVQ98G/L6L73eI6Sa/9eOFeAnoNBsj6tjqjAI093idYe6sChdgMwDmNgtpGA21PK bHPLs3F8PPPEala2BV4rWdyVlHsXImqi1HkelZrhGhw7nh1+b6PP53C7fo32Co518JWg 1Qz4l5KkP8jVqKlKAbktN2+cLoGHgJGx+/W9cUDz8v9VGoFegJA40u+38B7gId1Uzyta 4HFYI1ZXhgbqQs9iYJ9gHYNzN3uvoBDvORg8YgNARuHpxLaDzMHO23ujWvF7xw1fWz4g BsrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ISgSO6+9ubVSP659KJC2USYq5ICIcrqg4bIrLR5N/wA=; b=fjKm8jLlS6RT9v8UXOPM0HgHymHD7mxnZU1CS4GicYT/9pX4p0pCVTgk2BYkWaHSqd ZceeyUWmMPP9ynFuyeBZ5G7LJxQ8sdvEGwOi8PZIu8+298nGMUKU2uBIXVfI2aHGV6df Fj0/YvOyPoak7YvrJ2Et0mAlRxgCBMyz/jMSqvKYWDy4iVvz5lO1ilw7P3QGxID3e/Ye 0QQNZmqOrDf2mJf4JXKGVQPFl3jxEgYx3PO6+L1qkC9zwsdwq+4JouQPL/BRwsUKE8tC GcHinMd8vo6VkE9IFZtRqucyzJiL5KiGGGHbo81Gkn+U4hxEJBDVA5VoUFqoqIHjO4Is M+TA== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQ84p7Jn5FfpIXh79z5ZHGkoGCNkM96BrWzMNV+MgTF3XVQKZjUUtycNgclQbFD+w== X-Received: by 10.140.99.23 with SMTP id p23mr336509qge.1.1455665552517; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:32:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.43.116 with SMTP id d107ls263727qga.20.gmail; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:32:31 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.92.79 with SMTP id a73mr337576qge.2.1455665551912; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:32:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:32:31 -0800 (PST) From: Andrew To: lojban Message-Id: <01ad6408-532e-4bb3-a4a1-4ea08194df95@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de> <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com> <56A51A50.7030306@gmx.de> <98c49151-ad46-447d-84c3-3c121c4210ef@googlegroups.com> <56C19750.2000006@lojban.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1074_1539080857.1455665551202" X-Original-Sender: summerfallsaway@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1074_1539080857.1455665551202 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1075_566419704.1455665551202" ------=_Part_1075_566419704.1455665551202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I'm honestly not entirely sure I understood everything in the Issue you linked, gleki... But apparently we're already using GitHub for la jbovlaste -- at least for tracking the code for the website itself. So that's good. Whether GitHub tracks the actual database or whether it's only used to tracking ongoing issues, I think it will help. What format is the database in right now? The suggestion before had been to consider an XML-based format actually used by linguists, because we could then also use any other tools designed to work with that XML spec. I know HTML well enough that picking up whatever XML format wouldn't be too hard. And there are plenty of tools for working with the usual website databases (like MySQL, or CouchDB, or whatever). But I'm not really expert enough to say which database format would be better for our purposes. I'm just trying to facilitate the discussion, so we can move forward. ~Andrew / cemjig On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 10:36:55 PM UTC-8, la gleki wrote: > > > > 2016-02-16 1:59 GMT+03:00 Andrew >: > >> I forgot to mention that the proposals I mentioned in my last email were >> actually *not* my ideas, that I was just summarzing some of the >> discussion I saw while "lurking" on IRC. I do like the idea of using >> GitHub, or something similar, though. I think we need some kind of online >> tool to help us collaborate on this project, something which will help us >> keep track of ongoing issues and so on. It doesn't have to be GitHub >> necessarily, but we are already using GitHub to track the cleanup and >> development of the CLL, so I think GitHub would be a sensible choice. >> >> gleki said: >> >>> >>> Please note that jbovlaste has wonderful features that Github itself >>> won't support out of the box... >>> >> >> That's a fair point: Whether we ultimately decide to replace or merely >> revise la jbovlaste, it would be helpful to make note of the good features >> we would like to *keep*. For instance, I think it sort of interesting >> that the different dictionary interfaces -- like vlasisku and sutysisku -- >> are able to share common data on the backend but present a different user >> interface. Which features were you thinking of, gleki? >> > > https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 > > This is a dirty explanation of how i envision the db. > If you want to use github as a database that would be fine of course > although strange. This of course wouldn't eliminate the need in an API > backend interacting with both frontends and the database. > > >> >> I think Timothy Lawrence and la lojbab are both right about cmavo in the >> dictionary: Learning cmavo and how they really work is essential to >> learning the *structure* of the language, and a detailed explanation of >> the grammar of the cmavo is probably outside the scope of a dictionary. >> However, the cmavo dictionary entries, just like the gismu, could still use >> some clearing up, and links to relevant sections of the CLL seems >> appropriate. Some entries, in fact, *already* link to the CLL. I'm sure >> online English dictionaries would do the same, if there were a such thing >> as a Complete English Language book! >> >> Thanks, >> ~Andrew / cemjig >> >> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:16:02 AM UTC-8, lojbab wrote: >>> >>> On 2/15/2016 12:20 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote: >>> > As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other >>> > webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical >>> > category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a higher priority >>> > than gismu etc.) >>> > >>> > >>> > For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "zi" really only >>> makes >>> > any sense if one has already read >>> > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html >>> > >>> > >>> > I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I can't >>> > understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained well on >>> > jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entire CLL >>> (and >>> > I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back. >>> >>> >>> When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose >>> was to do precisely what you are asking for. For a decade before that, >>> I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a >>> dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary entries >>> for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to). >>> >>> byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out >>> there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation >>> of each word in context with its grammatical category. Find the >>> relevant pages and your needs are met. >>> >>> Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it >>> is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage. And >>> the volunteers became bored and distracted. byfy slowly declined in >>> productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time. >>> >>> And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition. If >>> jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary >>> definitions and not grammatical explanation. It's not an easy problem >>> to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure what >>> solution would satisfy everyone. Take a look at a dictionary definition >>> for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" might be a could one, because >>> English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive and >>> describing that definitionally is difficult. >>> >>> in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that it should >>> discourage you. If you learn the language as described, you'll almost >>> certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they >>> are mostly minor. Remember that most of the people who have learned the >>> language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will >>> likely be true for years even after a revision is published. Partly due >>> to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of the >>> language significantly different from that described in the current CLL. >>> >>> lojbab >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1075_566419704.1455665551202 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm honestly not entirely sure I understood everything= in the Issue you linked, gleki... But apparently we're already using G= itHub for la jbovlaste -- at least for tracking the code for the website it= self. So that's good. Whether GitHub tracks the actual database or whet= her it's only used to tracking ongoing issues, I think it will help.
What format is the database in right now?

The suggestion before= had been to consider an XML-based format actually used by linguists, becau= se we could then also use any other tools designed to work with that XML sp= ec. I know HTML well enough that picking up whatever XML format wouldn'= t be too hard. And there are plenty of tools for working with the usual web= site databases (like MySQL, or CouchDB, or whatever). But I'm not reall= y expert enough to say which database format would be better for our purpos= es. I'm just trying to facilitate the discussion, so we can move forwar= d.

~Andrew / cemjig


On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 10:36= :55 PM UTC-8, la gleki wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

2016-02-16 1:59 GMT= +03:00 Andrew <summerf...@gmail.com>:
I forgot to mention that the proposals I ment= ioned in my last email were actually not my ideas, that I was just s= ummarzing some of the discussion I saw while "lurking" on IRC. I = do like the idea of using GitHub, or something similar, though. I think we = need some kind of online tool to help us collaborate on this project, somet= hing which will help us keep track of ongoing issues and so on. It doesn= 9;t have to be GitHub necessarily, but we are already using GitHub to track= the cleanup and development of the CLL, so I think GitHub would be a sensi= ble choice.

gleki said:
=C2=A0
Please note t= hat jbovlaste has wonderful features that Github itself won't support o= ut of the box...

That's a fair point: Whethe= r we ultimately decide to replace or merely revise la jbovlaste, it would b= e helpful to make note of the good features we would like to keep. F= or instance, I think it sort of interesting that the different dictionary i= nterfaces -- like vlasisku and sutysisku -- are able to share common data o= n the backend but present a different user interface. Which features were y= ou thinking of, gleki?


This is a dirty exp= lanation of how i envision the db.
If you want to use github as a= database that would be fine of course although strange. This of course wou= ldn't eliminate the need in an API backend interacting with both fronte= nds and the database.
=C2=A0

I think Timothy Lawrence and la lojbab are both right about cma= vo in the dictionary: Learning cmavo and how they really work is essential = to learning the structure of the language, and a detailed explanatio= n of the grammar of the cmavo is probably outside the scope of a dictionary= . However, the cmavo dictionary entries, just like the gismu, could still u= se some clearing up, and links to relevant sections of the CLL seems approp= riate. Some entries, in fact, already link to the CLL. I'm sure = online English dictionaries would do the same, if there were a such thing a= s a Complete English Language book!

Thanks,
~Andrew / cemjig
<= /div>

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:16:02 AM UTC-8, lojbab= wrote:
On 2/15/2016 12:20 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other
> webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical
> category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a hi= gher priority
> than gismu etc.)
>
>
> For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "= zi" really only makes
> any sense if one has already read
> http://www.lojban.org/p= ublications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html
>
>
> I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I= can't
> understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained we= ll on
> jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entir= e CLL (and
> I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back.


When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose= =20
was to do precisely what you are asking for.=C2=A0 For a decade before = that,=20
I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a= =20
dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary en= tries=20
for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to).

byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out=20
there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation= =20
of each word in context with its grammatical category.=C2=A0 Find the= =20
relevant pages and your needs are met.

Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it= =20
is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage.=C2=A0= And=20
the volunteers became bored and distracted. =C2=A0byfy slowly declined = in=20
productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time.

And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition.=C2= =A0 If=20
jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary=20
definitions and not grammatical explanation.=C2=A0 It's not an easy= problem=20
to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure wha= t=20
solution would satisfy everyone.=C2=A0 Take a look at a dictionary defi= nition=20
for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" migh= t be a could one, because=20
English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive a= nd=20
describing that definitionally is difficult.

in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that= it should=20
discourage you.=C2=A0 If you learn the language as described, you'l= l almost=20
certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they= =20
are mostly minor.=C2=A0 Remember that most of the people who have learn= ed the=20
language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will=20
likely be true for years even after a revision is published.=C2=A0 Part= ly due=20
to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of t= he=20
language significantly different from that described in the current CLL= .

lojbab

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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