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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c143si54544wmd.1.2016.02.16.22.58.18 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Feb 2016 22:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::230; Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id g62so143464451wme.1 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 22:58:18 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.28.18.85 with SMTP id 82mr1722143wms.5.1455692298039; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 22:58:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.91.210 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 22:57:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01ad6408-532e-4bb3-a4a1-4ea08194df95@googlegroups.com> References: <6f919681-f16c-4888-aa5a-30518a717c12@googlegroups.com> <569F85BF.8030909@gmx.de> <8805e2d3-4389-460c-9e5b-b0d5194da1c2@googlegroups.com> <56A51A50.7030306@gmx.de> <98c49151-ad46-447d-84c3-3c121c4210ef@googlegroups.com> <56C19750.2000006@lojban.org> <01ad6408-532e-4bb3-a4a1-4ea08194df95@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 09:57:38 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1145b3f853b83f052bf1c697 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1145b3f853b83f052bf1c697 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-02-17 2:32 GMT+03:00 Andrew : > I'm honestly not entirely sure I understood everything in the Issue you > linked, gleki... But apparently we're already using GitHub for la jbovlaste > -- at least for tracking the code for the website itself. So that's good. > Whether GitHub tracks the actual database or whether it's only used to > tracking ongoing issues, I think it will help. > > What format is the database in right now? > https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/tree/master/design > > The suggestion before had been to consider an XML-based format actually > used by linguists, because we could then also use any other tools designed > to work with that XML spec. I know HTML well enough that picking up > whatever XML format wouldn't be too hard. And there are plenty of tools for > working with the usual website databases (like MySQL, or CouchDB, or > whatever). But I'm not really expert enough to say which database format > would be better for our purposes. I'm just trying to facilitate the > discussion, so we can move forward. > Not that database is important but also its model. E.g. https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 is about its model. E.g. currently it's possible to edit existing definitions and thus when you edit it comments to it still link to it making no sense since the definition has been edited and thus the story of edits has been lost. E.g. wikis are usually free of this issue. > ~Andrew / cemjig > > > On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 10:36:55 PM UTC-8, la gleki wrote: >> >> >> >> 2016-02-16 1:59 GMT+03:00 Andrew : >> >>> I forgot to mention that the proposals I mentioned in my last email were >>> actually *not* my ideas, that I was just summarzing some of the >>> discussion I saw while "lurking" on IRC. I do like the idea of using >>> GitHub, or something similar, though. I think we need some kind of online >>> tool to help us collaborate on this project, something which will help us >>> keep track of ongoing issues and so on. It doesn't have to be GitHub >>> necessarily, but we are already using GitHub to track the cleanup and >>> development of the CLL, so I think GitHub would be a sensible choice. >>> >>> gleki said: >>> >>>> >>>> Please note that jbovlaste has wonderful features that Github itself >>>> won't support out of the box... >>>> >>> >>> That's a fair point: Whether we ultimately decide to replace or merely >>> revise la jbovlaste, it would be helpful to make note of the good features >>> we would like to *keep*. For instance, I think it sort of interesting >>> that the different dictionary interfaces -- like vlasisku and sutysisku -- >>> are able to share common data on the backend but present a different user >>> interface. Which features were you thinking of, gleki? >>> >> >> https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 >> >> This is a dirty explanation of how i envision the db. >> If you want to use github as a database that would be fine of course >> although strange. This of course wouldn't eliminate the need in an API >> backend interacting with both frontends and the database. >> >> >>> >>> I think Timothy Lawrence and la lojbab are both right about cmavo in the >>> dictionary: Learning cmavo and how they really work is essential to >>> learning the *structure* of the language, and a detailed explanation of >>> the grammar of the cmavo is probably outside the scope of a dictionary. >>> However, the cmavo dictionary entries, just like the gismu, could still use >>> some clearing up, and links to relevant sections of the CLL seems >>> appropriate. Some entries, in fact, *already* link to the CLL. I'm sure >>> online English dictionaries would do the same, if there were a such thing >>> as a Complete English Language book! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> ~Andrew / cemjig >>> >>> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:16:02 AM UTC-8, lojbab wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2/15/2016 12:20 AM, Timothy Lawrence wrote: >>>> > As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other >>>> > webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical >>>> > category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a higher priority >>>> > than gismu etc.) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "zi" really only >>>> makes >>>> > any sense if one has already read >>>> > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I can't >>>> > understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained well on >>>> > jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entire CLL >>>> (and >>>> > I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back. >>>> >>>> >>>> When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose >>>> was to do precisely what you are asking for. For a decade before that, >>>> I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a >>>> dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary >>>> entries >>>> for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to). >>>> >>>> byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out >>>> there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation >>>> of each word in context with its grammatical category. Find the >>>> relevant pages and your needs are met. >>>> >>>> Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it >>>> is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage. And >>>> the volunteers became bored and distracted. byfy slowly declined in >>>> productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time. >>>> >>>> And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition. >>>> If >>>> jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary >>>> definitions and not grammatical explanation. It's not an easy problem >>>> to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure what >>>> solution would satisfy everyone. Take a look at a dictionary >>>> definition >>>> for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" might be a could one, because >>>> English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive and >>>> describing that definitionally is difficult. >>>> >>>> in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that it should >>>> discourage you. If you learn the language as described, you'll almost >>>> certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they >>>> are mostly minor. Remember that most of the people who have learned >>>> the >>>> language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will >>>> likely be true for years even after a revision is published. Partly >>>> due >>>> to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of the >>>> language significantly different from that described in the current >>>> CLL. >>>> >>>> lojbab >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1145b3f853b83f052bf1c697 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-02-17 2:32 GMT+03:00 Andrew <summerfallsaway@gmail.com>:
I'm honestly not ent= irely sure I understood everything in the Issue you linked, gleki... But ap= parently we're already using GitHub for la jbovlaste -- at least for tr= acking the code for the website itself. So that's good. Whether GitHub = tracks the actual database or whether it's only used to tracking ongoin= g issues, I think it will help.

What format is the database in right= now?

=C2=A0

The suggestion before had been to consider an XML-based format act= ually used by linguists, because we could then also use any other tools des= igned to work with that XML spec. I know HTML well enough that picking up w= hatever XML format wouldn't be too hard. And there are plenty of tools = for working with the usual website databases (like MySQL, or CouchDB, or wh= atever). But I'm not really expert enough to say which database format = would be better for our purposes. I'm just trying to facilitate the dis= cussion, so we can move forward.

= Not that database is important but also its model. E.g.=C2=A0https://github.com/lojban/jbov= laste/issues/131 is about its model.

E.g. curr= ently it's possible to edit existing definitions and thus when you edit= it comments to it still link to it making no sense since the definition ha= s been edited and thus the story of edits has been lost. E.g. wikis are usu= ally free of this issue.



~Andrew / cemjig


On Monday, February 15, = 2016 at 10:36:55 PM UTC-8, la gleki wrote:


2016-02-16 = 1:59 GMT+03:00 Andrew <summerf...@= gmail.com>:
I forgot to = mention that the proposals I mentioned in my last email were actually no= t my ideas, that I was just summarzing some of the discussion I saw whi= le "lurking" on IRC. I do like the idea of using GitHub, or somet= hing similar, though. I think we need some kind of online tool to help us c= ollaborate on this project, something which will help us keep track of ongo= ing issues and so on. It doesn't have to be GitHub necessarily, but we = are already using GitHub to track the cleanup and development of the CLL, s= o I think GitHub would be a sensible choice.

gleki said:
=C2=A0
Please note that jbovlaste has wonderful features tha= t Github itself won't support out of the box...
=
That's a fair point: Whether we ultimately decide to replace or mer= ely revise la jbovlaste, it would be helpful to make note of the good featu= res we would like to keep. For instance, I think it sort of interest= ing that the different dictionary interfaces -- like vlasisku and sutysisku= -- are able to share common data on the backend but present a different us= er interface. Which features were you thinking of, gleki?


This is a dirty explanat= ion of how i envision the db.
If you want to use github as a data= base that would be fine of course although strange. This of course wouldn&#= 39;t eliminate the need in an API backend interacting with both frontends a= nd the database.
=C2=A0

I think Timothy Lawrence and la l= ojbab are both right about cmavo in the dictionary: Learning cmavo and how = they really work is essential to learning the structure of the langu= age, and a detailed explanation of the grammar of the cmavo is probably out= side the scope of a dictionary. However, the cmavo dictionary entries, just= like the gismu, could still use some clearing up, and links to relevant se= ctions of the CLL seems appropriate. Some entries, in fact, already = link to the CLL. I'm sure online English dictionaries would do the same= , if there were a such thing as a Complete English Language book!

Th= anks,
~Andrew / cemjig

On Monday, February 15, 20= 16 at 1:16:02 AM UTC-8, lojbab wrote:
On 2/15/2016 12:20 AM= , Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> As a user, I would like links to the relevant CLL page (or other
> webpage) that explains each word in context with its grammatical
> category.* (For me, the smaller "grammar words" are a hi= gher priority
> than gismu etc.)
>
>
> For example, the jbovlaste description of "pu" or "= zi" really only makes
> any sense if one has already read
> http://www.lojban.org/publ= ications/reference_grammar/chapter10.html
>
>
> I'm struggling trying to read real-world Lojban text because I= can't
> understand the grammatical constructs that aren't explained we= ll on
> jbovlaste. It's too difficult for me to read through the entir= e CLL (and
> I've been discouraged by it being out-of-date) front-to-back.


When byfy was started more than a dozen years ago, its primary purpose= =20
was to do precisely what you are asking for.=C2=A0 For a decade before = that,=20
I as leader of the organization had been stymied in trying to produce a= =20
dictionary because I couldn't figure out how to write dictionary en= tries=20
for the cmavo (the grammatical words you refer to).

byfy did do a lot of work on this, and the web pages are still out=20
there, and many have precisely what you are asking for: an explanation= =20
of each word in context with its grammatical category.=C2=A0 Find the= =20
relevant pages and your needs are met.

Not all the words were done, because in some parts of the language, it= =20
is simply too difficult to explain and/or find examples of usage.=C2=A0= And=20
the volunteers became bored and distracted. =C2=A0byfy slowly declined = in=20
productivity and eventually stopped for months or years at a time.

And that sort of text still is not a dictionary entry or definition.=C2= =A0 If=20
jbovlaste wants to pretend to be a dictionary, it needs dictionary=20
definitions and not grammatical explanation.=C2=A0 It's not an easy= problem=20
to solve, and after a couple of decades of trying, I'm not sure wha= t=20
solution would satisfy everyone.=C2=A0 Take a look at a dictionary defi= nition=20
for "the" or "of" (and actually "or" migh= t be a could one, because=20
English "or" sometimes is inclusive and sometimes exclusive a= nd=20
describing that definitionally is difficult.

in any event, CLL's "out-of-date-ness" is not so bad that= it should=20
discourage you.=C2=A0 If you learn the language as described, you'l= l almost=20
certainly be understood. There might be some confusing spots, but they= =20
are mostly minor.=C2=A0 Remember that most of the people who have learn= ed the=20
language have learned using the original CLL edition, and that will=20
likely be true for years even after a revision is published.=C2=A0 Part= ly due=20
to my age and health, I don't ever expect to learn any version of t= he=20
language significantly different from that described in the current CLL= .

lojbab

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1145b3f853b83f052bf1c697--