Received: from mail-wm0-f56.google.com ([74.125.82.56]:33124) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1acHSY-0006pV-VN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:56 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f56.google.com with SMTP id n186sf10643637wmn.0 for ; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=d9Knt1lGYRbepUqTWSOpiduGWIrvg3WCsYvP8Rf2Xls=; b=n0YYAHD069WN+c7iYvmsApW8BT7j9QI/A6pdk7U9mPL84gvDOI/tDzsHxOwUwsD3N7 RuV7sgcYXj1Ynk8jRLW4MHTr2jSQcZJOTlac8MR1/NGQ/J5DIUytMFEcAx5OTUJjDWfs Q+v9N9jqZXRxZR9zN8JVk8jeDESO8wuZmHPAoEdBh5yx2hmTHgJTiaopo9WSwq0nrXCF vjOg9nxpStunTejFPQdY3hwLxt5IB3btp9xr8o+qCA9bfGo/v2zdci6B5lmZDHkD1KyG AkkLySaMTyEIFJIlFLeKax6Mu1bwIYfeVHFDwud9zFg468SnRPXlDLlKPCQt8qckT6/2 XYAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=d9Knt1lGYRbepUqTWSOpiduGWIrvg3WCsYvP8Rf2Xls=; b=dCff5Ab4aF5l0k8X9BsYDtnd1/AQowy3DzMitjLcbXtg0Id3ap+Lr+pvAzrK+0EH9+ DEipkbxju7MB7N2JB68dHx+T9w/ekL9xQHRFBmIv93NtaAHkYNhSW1HRGm6Z4ZndoB0k 8pgRg7bBxbqlnBxZ8bS6yLQPw8bpK8fVwiOwWLSVCZEX+By8KMFysePM1juLXFTgs7fi BnmAxDQfBBv6WRVtRIrRCmC19zAavNP9rVILmNLQW6ixJ71/3pBB5553N/X46B5ChAVM 2wT/BNqY3fznf2LjyOICT8r+Es65Y1fz3Un3sq3L/+6CSEFkCSIhrCFGpOmLJPdGxMbZ /dzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKonMe9dT39yigSy5xPIQ4mUYBykEykRl4hgTyyDkCWMZtn89dJsO7pj/kNW0myKQ== X-Received: by 10.25.160.148 with SMTP id j142mr205219lfe.13.1457204504421; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.25.87.20 with SMTP id l20ls169033lfb.87.gmail; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.112.210.129 with SMTP id mu1mr636802lbc.3.1457204503596; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w10si126727wmw.3.2016.03.05.11.01.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::233; Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n186so33107902wmn.1 for ; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.184.139 with SMTP id eu11mr17426054wjc.169.1457204503342; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.91.210 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Mar 2016 11:01:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4af4a1c7-a0a6-4d7a-8e40-a9b88a062059@googlegroups.com> References: <82905720-4d75-4196-9886-cc8c034d9f83@googlegroups.com> <6e9ca8d6-4dcc-4103-a990-4df0ffb16899@googlegroups.com> <56AF570C.1050409@gmail.com> <0c5400d9-fec8-4215-8878-3918c043b226@googlegroups.com> <84590e65-e905-42e9-8738-55eaa5bec2f7@googlegroups.com> <4af4a1c7-a0a6-4d7a-8e40-a9b88a062059@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 22:01:03 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_The_experimental_version_of_Camxes=2DJS_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=94_=5Bfork_from_the_thread_=22Terminator_for_la=22=5D?= To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6d9c00c9780f052d51dca9 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b6d9c00c9780f052d51dca9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2016-02-03 13:24 GMT+03:00 guskant : > > > Le mercredi 3 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 09:18:31 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > >> >> >> 2016-02-02 13:09 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >>> >>> >>> Le mardi 2 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 06:39:15 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >>>> >>>> >>>> 2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant : >>>> >>>>> The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parse= r >>>>> on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal >>>>> beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-= js is >>>>> of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official = soon. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's simply not true. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> There is no evidence that it's not true, while there are evidences that >>> it's true. >>> Because you have concealed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use >>> the wayback machine here: >>> >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20151031175123/https://mw.lojban.org/papri/= La_Bangu >>> >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20150226233559/http://mw.lojban.org/papri/T= he_Crash_Course_(a_draft) >>> >>> The first archive above shows that your personal beginner's course deal= s >>> with "modern dialects of Lojban". >>> >> >> Of course. I use users' feedback to improve it. It has been so and will >> be so. That's the nature of the course. >> >> If a person uses this course then he/she sends feedback back. >> >> All constructive criticism is taken into consideration. Yelling "it's >> wrong" is not taken into account. >> >> >>> The second one shows that the followers of your personal beginner's >>> course should use the parser >>> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html , that is >>> experimental camxes-js, for checking the grammar of their sentences. >>> >> >> The Crash Course is a draft. I wasn't careful enough to study this >> parser. By now, the "more official" ilmentufa parser is more or less fin= e >> so I changed to it. >> >> Most "problems" with the course is due to lack of care because the >> language is big. >> >> Not because of hidden intentions that don't exist. >> >> >>> Besides, you made some modifications on the experimental camxes-js that >>> were reflected on the parser on lojban.org. >>> https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/commits/master/camxes-exp.js.peg >>> >>> Those three records are evidences for your dictatorship that you abused >>> your authority on lojban.org by freely modified the tool on official >>> server for your personal beginner's course. >>> >>> >>> >>>> We can no more see that egocentric version of his personal beginner's >>>>> course, because he has already concealed the evidence. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Because it's not egocentric and on the contrary altruistic. >>>> What can even be egocentric in an activity for which personally I gain >>>> nothing. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> You gained "modern Lojban" suitable to your ideal, and deprived me of m= y >>> citizenship of Lojban community. The evidences are below. >>> >>> You differentiated Zantufa grammar on #lojban channel of IRC: >>> --- Day changed Mon Aug 10 2015 >>> 10:43 < gleki> lo catni gerna cu te frica ma'oi GUhA ma'oi GA i ma'i la >>> zantufa lo cmavo be ma'oi GUhA cu na'e se nitcu jecu ku'i binxo lo cmav= o be >>> ma'oi GA i lu ro mo cu ge mo gi mo li'u ja lu ro mo ge cu mo gi mo li'u= cu >>> se stura lo simsa be tu'a lo catni gerna sei ku'i na'e dunli >>> 10:43 < gleki> i di'u se cusku la guskant >>> 10:43 < gleki> i ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau >>> >>> This record and above three records are evidences for your egocentrism >>> of asserting that I am not Lojbanist, while you keep some dialects that= you >>> permit to be modern Lojban. >>> >> >> Those are not my dialects. Those are from the community. >> >> You banned yourself from the community by not providing any feedback >> whereas a lot of people (at least 20) throughout the history of the >> development of the Crash Course has contributed to it. >> >> If there are "dialects" in the Course and everyone thinks they are fine >> then I won't delete them. >> >> However, when someone notices a problem and suggests a solution or other= s >> suggest a solution then the solution is implemented. >> E.g. recently following users' feedback I removed experimental word >> {mi'ai} because users in general thought that it wasn't that useful. >> >> If something else problematic is discovered then it will be reflected as >> it HAS ALWAYS been so. >> >> When the number of issues drops to "not more than 1 issue once every two >> months" then IMO it will be time to call it "beta version" of the Course= . >> But currently it's still a draft (not that IMO any other courses in >> English are much more perfect). >> >> >>> >>> >>>> The fact that Gleki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved >>>>> point, though his dictatorship will not stop as long as he continues >>>>> administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You simply don't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. >>>> not me. You as well can get an account there and put everything releva= nt to >>>> Lojban you like. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I don't know about the whole administratorship on that server. However, >>> at least your modifications on tools are all reflected on the web conte= nts >>> of lojban.org. >>> http://vrici.lojban.org/~gleki/ >>> (I don't know why that folder is kept visible to public.) >>> >>> >>> >>>> Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki: >>>>> >>>> >>>> You as well publish different unofficial resources on lojban.org >>>> >>>> The only reason for me to publish it there was and is to provide a >>>> faster way of accessing them. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I only modified pages of mediawiki with notes of "unofficial" when >>> necessary, while you modified any tools on lojban.org as you like. You >>> have the whole power on lojban.org web contents >>> >> >> No, it's not true. Those are your fantasies. >> The folder mw.lojban.org/extensions/ is visible because it was faster to >> access them by users. >> By various reasons it's indeed better to move them to other hostings. >> But I had no time for doing so. >> The whole code is open so everyone is free to do so. >> DON'T COMPLAIN. INSTEAD DO BETTER. >> >> > Again and again, you changed the subject and would not answer to my > remark. I don't complain about what you teach in your personal beginner's > course. My remark is about your dictatorship of freely changing the tools > on official website for your personal contents. You abuse your authority = on > official website for your personal contents. The tools on lojban.org > don't contain any information about the responsibility of the tools > themselves, and then no one doubt that the tools are maintained by the > official body. The truth is that not the official body but you maintain t= he > tools. > > I recommend that you maintain your tools as you like outside of official > website. Don't abuse your authority on the contents of lojban.org. I > appreciate that you finally informed us of the new page for ilmentufa > parsers on lojban.github.io, where we all can join the maintenance and > you cannot execute your dictatorship. Continue that way. > I will take out other courses later when I convert them to other formats. This will also mean that other people will no longer be able to edit them :( but as you wish, dictator. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b6d9c00c9780f052d51dca9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-02-03 13:24 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:


Le mercr= edi 3 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 09:18:31 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

=

2016-02-02 13:09 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:


Le mardi 2 f=C3=A9vrier 2016 06:= 39:15 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant = <gusni...@gmail.com>= :
The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been= maintained the parser on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his pe= rsonal beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental ca= mxes-js is of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be offi= cial soon.

It's simply not true.<= /div>
=C2=A0

=

There is no evidence that it's not true, while= there are evidences that it's true.
Because you have conceal= ed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use the wayback machine here:
https://web.archive.o= rg/web/20151031175123/https://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu
https://= web.archive.org/web/20150226233559/http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Cou= rse_(a_draft)

The first archive above shows th= at your personal beginner's course deals with "modern dialects of = Lojban".=C2=A0

Of co= urse. I use users' feedback to improve it. It has been so and will be s= o. That's the nature of the course.

If a perso= n uses this course then he/she sends feedback back.

All constructive criticism is taken into consideration. Yelling "it&= #39;s wrong" is not taken into account.


The second one shows that = the followers of your personal beginner's course should use the parser = http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/c= amxes-exp.html , that is experimental camxes-js, for checking the gramm= ar of their sentences.

Th= e Crash Course is a draft. I wasn't careful enough to study this parser= . By now, the "more official" ilmentufa parser is more or less fi= ne so I changed to it.

Most "problems" w= ith the course is due to lack of care because the language is big.

Not because of hidden intentions that don't exist.


Besides, you made some modifications on the experimental camxes-js that we= re reflected on the parser on lojban.org.

Those three records are evidences for = your dictatorship that you abused your authority on lojban.org by freely modified= the tool on official server for your personal beginner's course.
=

=C2=A0
We can no more s= ee that egocentric version of his personal beginner's course, because h= e has already concealed the evidence.

Because it's not egocentric and on the contrary altruistic.
= What can even be egocentric in an activity for which personally I gain noth= ing.
=C2=A0


You gained "modern Lojban" suitable= to your ideal, and deprived me of my citizenship of Lojban community. The = evidences are below.

You differentiated Zantufa gr= ammar on #lojban channel of IRC:
--- Day changed Mon Aug 10 2015<= /div>
10:43 < gleki> lo catni gerna cu te frica ma'oi GUhA ma= 'oi GA i ma'i la zantufa lo cmavo be ma'oi GUhA cu na'e se = nitcu jecu ku'i binxo lo cmavo be ma'oi GA i lu ro mo cu ge mo gi m= o li'u ja lu ro mo ge cu mo gi mo li'u cu se stura lo simsa be tu&#= 39;a lo catni gerna sei ku'i na'e dunli
10:43 < gleki&= gt; i di'u se cusku la guskant
10:43 < gleki> i ja'= o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau

This recor= d and above three records are evidences for your egocentrism of asserting t= hat I am not Lojbanist, while you keep some dialects that you permit to be = modern Lojban.

Those are = not my dialects. Those are from the community.

You= banned yourself =C2=A0from the community by not providing any feedback whe= reas a lot of people (at least 20) throughout the history of the developmen= t of the Crash Course has contributed to it.

If th= ere are "dialects" in the Course and everyone thinks they are fin= e then I won't delete them.

However, when some= one notices a problem and suggests a solution or others suggest a solution = then the solution is implemented.
E.g. recently following users&#= 39; feedback I removed experimental word {mi'ai} because users in gener= al thought that it wasn't that useful.

If some= thing else problematic is discovered then it will be reflected as it HAS AL= WAYS been so.

When the number of issues drops to &= quot;not more than 1 issue once every two months" then IMO it will be = time to call it "beta version" of the Course. But currently it= 9;s still a draft =C2=A0(not that IMO any other courses in English are much= more perfect).

=

=C2=A0
The fact that Gl= eki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved point, though his d= ictatorship will not stop as long as he continues administrating "vric= i" server of lojban.org.

You simply do= n't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. not me. You= as well can get an account there and put everything relevant to Lojban you= like.



I don't know about the whole administrato= rship on that server. However, at least your modifications on tools are all= reflected on the web contents of lojban.org.
(I don't know why that folder is kept visible = to public.)

=C2=A0
Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki:

You as well publish different unofficial resource= s on lojba= n.org

The only reason for me to publish it the= re was and is to provide a faster way of accessing them.



I only modif= ied pages of mediawiki with notes of "unofficial" when necessary,= while you modified any tools on lojban.org as you like. You have the whole power= on lojban= .org web contents

No, it= 9;s not true. Those are your fantasies.
The folder mw.lojban= .org/extensions/ is visible because it was faster to access them by use= rs.
By various reasons it's indeed better to move them to oth= er hostings.
But I had no time for doing so.
The whole = code is open so everyone is free to do so.
DON'T COMPLAIN. IN= STEAD DO BETTER.

Again and again, you changed the subject and would= not answer to my remark. I don't complain about what you teach in your= personal beginner's course. My remark is about your dictatorship of fr= eely changing the tools on official website for your personal contents. You= abuse your authority on official website for your personal contents. The t= ools on lojban.org don&= #39;t contain any information about the responsibility of the tools themsel= ves, and then no one doubt that the tools are maintained by the official bo= dy. The truth is that not the official body but you maintain the tools.=C2= =A0

I recommend that you maintain your tools as yo= u like outside of official website. Don't abuse your authority on the c= ontents of lojban.org. = I appreciate that you finally informed us of the new page for ilmentufa par= sers on lojban.github= .io, where we all can join the maintenance and you cannot execute your = dictatorship. Continue that way.

I will take out other courses later when I convert them to other formats.= This will also mean that other people will no longer be able to edit them = :( but as you wish, dictator.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b6d9c00c9780f052d51dca9--