Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 23:12:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <cbe2f364-5f9a-48f5-bc87-6150895d68b3@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <20160503180728.1a4f504e@W5.localdomain>
References: <20160428233042.00eec890@W5.localdomain>
 <CAO7bV+hb=-pULO7zA4Dduz0bo7NXx__EV75Bccy7S8YebFr+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160503180728.1a4f504e@W5.localdomain>
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIEhvdyB0byBzcGVjaWZ5IGRhdGVzIHdpdGgg4oCcZGV0cmnigJ0/?=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_5397_407419482.1462342337006"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

------=_Part_5397_407419482.1462342337006
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_5398_516543890.1462342337006"

------=_Part_5398_516543890.1462342337006
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:07:34 UTC, Wuzzy a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
>
> Why isn't this (or something similar) in the official=20
> definition (or in the notes)? :-(=20
>
> I now had 3 different answers, each of them (more or less)=20
> contradicting each other. :-(((=20
>
> For insance, you say, the order is year, month, day, another one say its=
=20
> day, month, year because of ISO. Official definition also uses the day,=
=20
> month, year ordering.=20
>
> It's nice you all try to explain how detri is used =E2=80=9Cin actual usa=
ge=E2=80=9D,=20
> but it seems that =E2=80=9Cactual usage=E2=80=9D varies to a great extent=
, so it is not=20
> really useful. :-/=20
>
> IMO we need a clear and well-defined OFFICIAL definition for detri, not=
=20
> several contradicting ad-hoc definitions.=20
>
>
Those different answers gave you some different examples of convention,=20
which are not suggestion for official definition.
The official definition of {detri} does not restrict the form of x1 to one=
=20
convention: x1 of {detri} is any sumti that can be a symbol for a time=20
point; the applicable symbol is defined with x4.
The form of x1 depends on context, and you can specify the form with x4 or=
=20
any additional items like {fi'o}, {noi}, {ti'o}* and so on if necessary.

(*Use of {ti'o} for that purpose is not officially suggested but I think it=
=20
is enough applicable for specifying mapping of numbers to time points.)=20

According to your answers so far, I can't even safely make sense out of=20
> something like =E2=80=9Cli pa pi'e re pi'e ci detri=E2=80=9D, because you=
 don't seem=20
> to even agree on the ordering. :-(=20
>


The official definition for {detri} should not specify the ordering because=
=20
{detri} has x4 by nature to specify the calendar that defines the system of=
=20
mapping of symbols to time points. If you think the current definition is=
=20
confusing, we need to add explanation of usage of x4, not restriction to=20
the form of x1.


Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:18:52 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
>
> Well, Lojban for Beginners and "lerfu detri" don't contradict each other.=
=20
> Otherwise, yes.
>
>
No, as explained above, those are different conventions and not definitions=
=20
of x1 of {detri}. They all can be used in different contexts. Because the=
=20
context should be different between them, the universe of discourse is=20
different between them, and therefore they cannot contradict each other.

=20

> There is also one more solution: not to use {detri} at all. You may use=
=20
> {jednpa} etc., {de'i'u}...
>
>
 As explained above, you can stay with {detri} by declaring x4 of {detri}.=
=20
 {jednpa} series and {de'i'u} series are all defined with {detri} and they=
=20
can be expanded to {detri} form of the same meaning.


mi'e la guskant

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_5398_516543890.1462342337006
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:07:34 UTC, Wuzzy a =C3=A9cr=
it=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: =
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>Why isn&#39;t this (or something similar) in the official
<br>definition (or in the notes)? :-(
<br>
<br>I now had 3 different answers, each of them (more or less)
<br>contradicting each other. :-(((
<br>
<br>For insance, you say, the order is year, month, day, another one say it=
s
<br>day, month, year because of ISO. Official definition also uses the day,
<br>month, year ordering.
<br>
<br>It&#39;s nice you all try to explain how detri is used =E2=80=9Cin actu=
al usage=E2=80=9D,
<br>but it seems that =E2=80=9Cactual usage=E2=80=9D varies to a great exte=
nt, so it is not
<br>really useful. :-/
<br>
<br>IMO we need a clear and well-defined OFFICIAL definition for detri, not
<br>several contradicting ad-hoc definitions.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Those different answers gave you some =
different examples of convention, which are not suggestion for official def=
inition.</div><div>The official definition of {detri} does not restrict the=
 form of x1 to one convention: x1 of {detri} is any sumti that can be a sym=
bol for a time point; the applicable symbol is defined with x4.</div><div>T=
he form of x1 depends on context, and you can specify the form with x4 or a=
ny additional items like {fi&#39;o}, {noi}, {ti&#39;o}* and so on if necess=
ary.</div><div><br></div><div>(*Use of {ti&#39;o} for that purpose is not o=
fficially suggested but I think it is enough applicable for specifying mapp=
ing of numbers to time points.)=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;">According to your answers so far, I can&#39;t e=
ven safely make sense out of
<br>something like =E2=80=9Cli pa pi&#39;e re pi&#39;e ci detri=E2=80=9D, b=
ecause you don&#39;t seem
<br>to even agree on the ordering. :-(
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>The official defin=
ition for {detri} should not specify the ordering because {detri} has x4 by=
 nature to specify the calendar that defines the system of mapping of symbo=
ls to time points. If you think the current definition is confusing, we nee=
d to add explanation of usage of x4, not restriction to the form of x1.</di=
v></div><div><br></div><div><br><br>Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:18:52 UTC, la gl=
eki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>Well, Lojban for Beginner=
s and &quot;lerfu detri&quot; don&#39;t contradict each other. Otherwise, y=
es.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
No, as explained above, those are different conventions and not definitions=
 of x1 of {detri}. They all can be used in different contexts. Because the =
context should be different between them, the universe of discourse is diff=
erent between them, and therefore they cannot contradict each other.</div><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(20=
4, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>There is also one more solutio=
n: not to use {detri} at all. You may use {jednpa} etc., {de&#39;i&#39;u}..=
.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0As=
 explained above, you can stay with {detri} by declaring x4 of {detri}. =C2=
=A0{jednpa} series and {de&#39;i&#39;u} series are all defined with {detri}=
 and they can be expanded to {detri} form of the same meaning.</div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la guskant</div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_5398_516543890.1462342337006--
------=_Part_5397_407419482.1462342337006--