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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:23:12 +0300
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And breaking this thread to somewhat parallel. I think this might be a good
place to post my conversation with la lojbab. that happened not long ago.
Sorry for formatting.

Gleki:
> L4B uses an approach of specifying timestamps and dates using either
{pi'e} or cmene.
> However, the official definition mentions some {joi} method:
> detri =3D x1 is the date [day,week,month,year] of event / state x2, at
location x3, by calendar x4. (time units in x1 are specified as numbers
separated by pi'e or are unit values massified with joi); See also cmavo
list de'i, djedi, jeftu, masti, nanca, tcika.
> What is this "unit values massified with joi" method? I can't find its
usage anywhere. How it was supposed to work?

Robert LeChevalier:
06/11/15
> I think that is referring to something like "5 djedi joi 11 masti joi
2015 nanca, which of course could be given in any order, whereas the pi'e
method requires a standard order in order to know what units the numbers
refer to.
> Actually that isn't completely true since someone could used mixed
numbers and lerfu separated by pi'e:  5d.11m.2015n and you would probably
know the meaning even if the terms were in a different order; but back when
we first made the gismu, we had not yet virtually eliminated any difference
in grammar between lerfu and namcu.
> There were a lot of people arguing for different orderings for the date
components, and we wanted to have a method that could easily specify the
ordering for those who wished to use a non-standard order, whatever the
standard might have ended up.

Gleki:
>> 5 djedi joi 11 masti joi 2015 nanca
> not sure what you mean. {li 5 djedi joi 11 masti joi 2015 nanca cu detri}
obviously doesn't parse.

Robert LeChevalier:
> How about if you just leave off the li?  Then you have three quantified
sumti joined into one by joi

Gleki:
>You mean {lo djedi be li 5 ku joi lo masti be li 11 ku ...}? But then they
can't fill detri1 because detri1 is a number.
>As for {5 djedi} it simply means "5 fullday intervals" that not
necessarily go one after another, they can intersect.


Robert LeChevalier:
> We have cmavo that convert *anything* into a number. a sumti, a bridi,
whatever.  So that would work too, using the Mex conversion cmavo.  mo'e
can convert a sumti into a number; ni'e can convert a selbri into a number.
> (I have to admit that in our usage, we never said that "detri1 is a
number", requiring conversion to a particular kind of construct. Rather,
the place structure specifies what NORMALLY goes there, and if something
abnormal goes there, one would pragmatically assume the proper
type-conversion.  Thus pragmatically one would not need the conversion
operator, but they are provided in case they are needed for formalism.)

>>As for {5 djedi} it simply means "5 fullday intervals" that not
necessarily go one after another, they can intersect.
>"not necessarily", indeed.  But implicit in joi is that they are in some
(non-logical) way additively connected.  Which way is determined
pragmatically, and when we came up with it, this was more or less a
conventional pragmatics that made sense.
>An employee who is paid by the hour and works 5 cacra is not going to work
5 overlapping hours, and is unlikely to work 5 completely unrelated hours;
the most common pragmatic interpretation is that they are consecutive
hours.  Similarly with dates - there is no plausible meaning of 5 djedi in
a date context that is other-than contiguous and consecutive, because that
is what dates measure.
>(We did not put a lot of thought into this question, but largely presumed
that all such matters would be resolved by pragmatic convention, which is
also what pi'e requires/denotes.)

Gleki:
> May I repost your answers to the mailing list?

Robert LeChevalier:
10/11/15
>May I repost your answers to the mailing list?
Go ahead.


2016-05-04 9:12 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:

>
>
> Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:07:34 UTC, Wuzzy a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>>
>>
>> Why isn't this (or something similar) in the official
>> definition (or in the notes)? :-(
>>
>> I now had 3 different answers, each of them (more or less)
>> contradicting each other. :-(((
>>
>> For insance, you say, the order is year, month, day, another one say its
>> day, month, year because of ISO. Official definition also uses the day,
>> month, year ordering.
>>
>> It's nice you all try to explain how detri is used =E2=80=9Cin actual us=
age=E2=80=9D,
>> but it seems that =E2=80=9Cactual usage=E2=80=9D varies to a great exten=
t, so it is not
>> really useful. :-/
>>
>> IMO we need a clear and well-defined OFFICIAL definition for detri, not
>> several contradicting ad-hoc definitions.
>>
>>
> Those different answers gave you some different examples of convention,
> which are not suggestion for official definition.
> The official definition of {detri} does not restrict the form of x1 to on=
e
> convention: x1 of {detri} is any sumti that can be a symbol for a time
> point; the applicable symbol is defined with x4.
> The form of x1 depends on context, and you can specify the form with x4 o=
r
> any additional items like {fi'o}, {noi}, {ti'o}* and so on if necessary.
>
> (*Use of {ti'o} for that purpose is not officially suggested but I think
> it is enough applicable for specifying mapping of numbers to time points.=
)
>
> According to your answers so far, I can't even safely make sense out of
>> something like =E2=80=9Cli pa pi'e re pi'e ci detri=E2=80=9D, because yo=
u don't seem
>> to even agree on the ordering. :-(
>>
>
>
> The official definition for {detri} should not specify the ordering
> because {detri} has x4 by nature to specify the calendar that defines the
> system of mapping of symbols to time points. If you think the current
> definition is confusing, we need to add explanation of usage of x4, not
> restriction to the form of x1.
>
>
>
> Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:18:52 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, Lojban for Beginners and "lerfu detri" don't contradict each other=
.
>> Otherwise, yes.
>>
>>
> No, as explained above, those are different conventions and not
> definitions of x1 of {detri}. They all can be used in different contexts.
> Because the context should be different between them, the universe of
> discourse is different between them, and therefore they cannot contradict
> each other.
>
>
>
>> There is also one more solution: not to use {detri} at all. You may use
>> {jednpa} etc., {de'i'u}...
>>
>>
>  As explained above, you can stay with {detri} by declaring x4 of {detri}=
.
>  {jednpa} series and {de'i'u} series are all defined with {detri} and the=
y
> can be expanded to {detri} form of the same meaning.
>
>
> mi'e la guskant
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr">And breaking this thread to somewhat parallel. I think thi=
s might be a good place to post my conversation with la lojbab. that happen=
ed not long ago. Sorry for formatting.<div><br></div><div><div>Gleki:</div>=
<div>&gt; L4B uses an approach of specifying timestamps and dates using eit=
her {pi&#39;e} or cmene.</div><div>&gt; However, the official definition me=
ntions some {joi} method:</div><div>&gt; detri =3D x1 is the date [day,week=
,month,year] of event / state x2, at location x3, by calendar x4. (time uni=
ts in x1 are specified as numbers separated by pi&#39;e or are unit values =
massified with joi); See also cmavo list de&#39;i, djedi, jeftu, masti, nan=
ca, tcika.</div><div>&gt; What is this &quot;unit values massified with joi=
&quot; method? I can&#39;t find its usage anywhere. How it was supposed to =
work?</div><div><br></div><div>Robert LeChevalier:</div><div>06/11/15</div>=
<div>&gt; I think that is referring to something like &quot;5 djedi joi 11 =
masti joi 2015 nanca, which of course could be given in any order, whereas =
the pi&#39;e method requires a standard order in order to know what units t=
he numbers refer to.</div><div>&gt; Actually that isn&#39;t completely true=
 since someone could used mixed numbers and lerfu separated by pi&#39;e: =
=C2=A05d.11m.2015n and you would probably know the meaning even if the term=
s were in a different order; but back when we first made the gismu, we had =
not yet virtually eliminated any difference in grammar between lerfu and na=
mcu.</div><div>&gt; There were a lot of people arguing for different orderi=
ngs for the date components, and we wanted to have a method that could easi=
ly specify the ordering for those who wished to use a non-standard order, w=
hatever the standard might have ended up.</div><div><br></div><div>Gleki:</=
div><div>&gt;&gt; 5 djedi joi 11 masti joi 2015 nanca</div><div>&gt; not su=
re what you mean. {li 5 djedi joi 11 masti joi 2015 nanca cu detri} obvious=
ly doesn&#39;t parse.</div><div><br></div><div>Robert LeChevalier:</div><di=
v>&gt; How about if you just leave off the li?=C2=A0 Then you have three qu=
antified sumti joined into one by joi</div><div><br></div><div>Gleki:</div>=
<div>&gt;You mean {lo djedi be li 5 ku joi lo masti be li 11 ku ...}? But t=
hen they can&#39;t fill detri1 because detri1 is a number.</div><div>&gt;As=
 for {5 djedi} it simply means &quot;5 fullday intervals&quot; that not nec=
essarily go one after another, they can intersect.</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>Robert LeChevalier:</div><div>&gt; We have cmavo that conve=
rt *anything* into a number. a sumti, a bridi, whatever.=C2=A0 So that woul=
d work too, using the Mex conversion cmavo. =C2=A0mo&#39;e can convert a su=
mti into a number; ni&#39;e can convert a selbri into a number.</div><div>&=
gt; (I have to admit that in our usage, we never said that &quot;detri1 is =
a number&quot;, requiring conversion to a particular kind of construct. Rat=
her, the place structure specifies what NORMALLY goes there, and if somethi=
ng abnormal goes there, one would pragmatically assume the proper type-conv=
ersion.=C2=A0 Thus pragmatically one would not need the conversion operator=
, but they are provided in case they are needed for formalism.)</div><div><=
br></div><div>&gt;&gt;As for {5 djedi} it simply means &quot;5 fullday inte=
rvals&quot; that not</div><div>necessarily go one after another, they can i=
ntersect.</div><div>&gt;&quot;not necessarily&quot;, indeed.=C2=A0 But impl=
icit in joi is that they are in some (non-logical) way additively connected=
.=C2=A0 Which way is determined pragmatically, and when we came up with it,=
 this was more or less a conventional pragmatics that made sense.</div><div=
>&gt;An employee who is paid by the hour and works 5 cacra is not going to =
work 5 overlapping hours, and is unlikely to work 5 completely unrelated ho=
urs; the most common pragmatic interpretation is that they are consecutive =
hours.=C2=A0 Similarly with dates - there is no plausible meaning of 5 djed=
i in a date context that is other-than contiguous and consecutive, because =
that is what dates measure.</div><div>&gt;(We did not put a lot of thought =
into this question, but largely presumed that all such matters would be res=
olved by pragmatic convention, which is also what pi&#39;e requires/denotes=
.)</div><div><br></div><div>Gleki:</div><div>&gt; May I repost your answers=
 to the mailing list?</div><div><br></div><div>Robert LeChevalier:</div><di=
v>10/11/15</div><div>&gt;May I repost your answers to the mailing list?</di=
v><div>Go ahead.</div></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2016-05-04 9:12 GMT+03:00 guskant <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gus=
ni.kantu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""><br><br>Le mardi 3 mai 2016 16:07:34 UTC, Wuzzy=
 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;mar=
gin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>Why isn&#39;t this (or something similar) in the official
<br>definition (or in the notes)? :-(
<br>
<br>I now had 3 different answers, each of them (more or less)
<br>contradicting each other. :-(((
<br>
<br>For insance, you say, the order is year, month, day, another one say it=
s
<br>day, month, year because of ISO. Official definition also uses the day,
<br>month, year ordering.
<br>
<br>It&#39;s nice you all try to explain how detri is used =E2=80=9Cin actu=
al usage=E2=80=9D,
<br>but it seems that =E2=80=9Cactual usage=E2=80=9D varies to a great exte=
nt, so it is not
<br>really useful. :-/
<br>
<br>IMO we need a clear and well-defined OFFICIAL definition for detri, not
<br>several contradicting ad-hoc definitions.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Those different answers gave yo=
u some different examples of convention, which are not suggestion for offic=
ial definition.</div><div>The official definition of {detri} does not restr=
ict the form of x1 to one convention: x1 of {detri} is any sumti that can b=
e a symbol for a time point; the applicable symbol is defined with x4.</div=
><div>The form of x1 depends on context, and you can specify the form with =
x4 or any additional items like {fi&#39;o}, {noi}, {ti&#39;o}* and so on if=
 necessary.</div><div><br></div><div>(*Use of {ti&#39;o} for that purpose i=
s not officially suggested but I think it is enough applicable for specifyi=
ng mapping of numbers to time points.)=C2=A0</div><span class=3D""><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">According to your answers so=
 far, I can&#39;t even safely make sense out of
<br>something like =E2=80=9Cli pa pi&#39;e re pi&#39;e ci detri=E2=80=9D, b=
ecause you don&#39;t seem
<br>to even agree on the ordering. :-(
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div><br></div><div>The officia=
l definition for {detri} should not specify the ordering because {detri} ha=
s x4 by nature to specify the calendar that defines the system of mapping o=
f symbols to time points. If you think the current definition is confusing,=
 we need to add explanation of usage of x4, not restriction to the form of =
x1.</div></div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D""><br><br>Le mardi 3 mai =
2016 16:18:52 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><br><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>Well, Lojban =
for Beginners and &quot;lerfu detri&quot; don&#39;t contradict each other. =
Otherwise, yes.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div></span><div>No, as explained above, those are different conventions =
and not definitions of x1 of {detri}. They all can be used in different con=
texts. Because the context should be different between them, the universe o=
f discourse is different between them, and therefore they cannot contradict=
 each other.</div><span class=3D""><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wid=
th:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>There =
is also one more solution: not to use {detri} at all. You may use {jednpa} =
etc., {de&#39;i&#39;u}...</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div></span><div>=C2=A0As explained above, you can stay with {detri} =
by declaring x4 of {detri}. =C2=A0{jednpa} series and {de&#39;i&#39;u} seri=
es are all defined with {detri} and they can be expanded to {detri} form of=
 the same meaning.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la gusk=
ant</div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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