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Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 22:01:59 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+CjcgwzBWR5DB7N1n9AxJJAtqipkSJbS0QbVBA_acZD3g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban] Re: a thing or two about the Crash Course
From: Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
To: mriste <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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On 20 May 2016 at 21:22, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:

>   Hello there,
> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not
> properly marked.
>
>   To elaborate:
>
=E2=80=8B  Let'=E2=80=8Bs be honest: I've called this mail 'a thing or two =
about the Crash
Course', then I've said 'elaborating', and sudden=E2=80=8Bly it's almost 50=
0 words
(yes, I've run "wc -w"). Anyway.

> the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of
> topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents
> describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban,
> containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there
> are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This
> means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at
> the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the
> reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that
> reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are
> many solutions to this problem.
>
>   The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught b=
y
> CC is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model
> counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and
> wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only=
 a
> template away from victory!
>
>   (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e}
> of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), declare it a=
s the
> modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu=
'e
> talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I
> call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted
> experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphin=
g
> of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
>
>   The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them
> mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
>
>   The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way,
> no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and
> thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
>
>   The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or
> word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the offici=
al
> version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced befo=
re!
>
>   The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialec=
t
> to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le
> jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>
>   What would YOU do? I think that not doing any of these would be an
> offense from gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to
> discuss it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting ha=
ir
> in two and talking about one half only.
>
> =E2=80=94 mu'o
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 May 2016 at 21:22, Bruno Panasiewicz <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ciuak.prog@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ciuak.prog@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Hello there,<br>
I&#39;m genuinely offended by that the Crash Course&#39;s resources are not=
 properly marked.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 To elaborate: </p></blockquote><div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
;display:inline">=E2=80=8B=C2=A0 Let&#39;=E2=80=8Bs be honest: I&#39;ve cal=
led this mail &#39;a thing or two about the Crash Course&#39;, then I&#39;v=
e said &#39;elaborating&#39;, and sudden=E2=80=8Bly it&#39;s almost 500 wor=
ds (yes, I&#39;ve run &quot;wc -w&quot;). Anyway.<br></div></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">the course is not a single page and, as=
 you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even releva=
nt to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme =
of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma&#39;o =
and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they =
all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off =
by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the=
 CC&#39;s pages don&#39;t warn the reader this way. It is important to do s=
o, as it doesn&#39;t confuse that reader into thinking some construct is of=
ficial while it isn&#39;t. There are many solutions to this problem.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The first one is defining what a &quot;modern dialect=
 of Lojban&quot; as taught by CC is, by the community itself. For example: =
is the selpa&#39;i &#39;s JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask s=
uch questions night-long, and wouldn&#39;t get a brick solid answer. So why=
 not capture it? Then we&#39;re only a template away from victory!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki ca=
n add {moi&#39;i&#39;au&#39;e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in pat=
terns [sumti]&quot;), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new =
army of nintadni would flush the jbogu&#39;e talking about the peculiar swi=
mming patterns of salmon. Now that&#39;s what I call evil! In order to avoi=
d such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no =
such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners wo=
uld occur.)</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK&#39;s members&#=
39; cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget i=
t.</p><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B</div><p></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from th=
e wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on th=
e wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren&#39;t. Simp=
le, right?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every nonst=
andard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and s=
how the official version. Suddenly we don&#39;t get any of the problems we&=
#39;ve experienced before!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and con=
sider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu&#=
39;u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo&#39;o.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 What would YOU do? I think that not doing any of thes=
e would be an offense from gleki&#39;s side, so some of these should be don=
e. Feel free to discuss it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you&#=
39;re splitting hair in two and talking about one half only.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=E2=80=94 mu&#39;o</p>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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