Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::230;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CACtk4+Ag-Syr3oKPd8niOsDShtgjgvvDavTVN1Y4=2ecN5vc3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACtk4+B+WS74qbs1J=HyZ9Pg8Hc4FXbWARUWxV=y_Y_VwJPvRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+ADCVEVGT92regxhBtCy7EYZgLC++pbKk-Nq2QkL9Ah1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+BDRUOCxRJ=tig2H7o-WfVyMpgQwuHRXTcyJ9FZP_vaOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+A7jpOE75wWTvP0dMZ7qCd2dttKFv4GbFS5qiVO8adjJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+C7sZptKSDQN2C00R0kthkuWW35+itSEHTW1bH6W4Tapw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+AGQzQmn+tT3i_p5FxNd5JL8b=YwFUKbojjM3nen_w3KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+ByArKPXeg-QCdtx_LE+3L2+KgcFzuqdacc==+p=0XrQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+Cj-+Dpw-6eTn=te2T5t3Z8Qu_Q0niKD3duSt+DLOwAXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+DAqLpUoM6QXF6Zx8-5j6oSPbFnJe-9YGPyokFUKzkCrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+AzSXc9hbH7c=bxqv1opYdjBoHhF56f6wX3xg2xqSvTZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+Ag7PLwCOg8=A3KCvL3vBaJyPPB3rK9E8N3f4ye2S1JcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+CKktyidokn_op3dtGvu3XXEqqP4eX5zkwVgqZ1Xy0hPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+AExZcM6-wUXX0fh2yQwvP-4Guenq7Bow206nUzGRiGZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+BOp9Z9QJe3M4pNmZCjSgZSZmyPGSeMAOm_v0Dib2ZM2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+AWM4rbJ-fJ1f6JHjzhnbmnVCiGq-irAraZjk99O6kxTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+CL7rLtCtrwazxz+nurDNDsgjJT8e2qreWYmtRFDRh6ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+AWGMdQe+J3+iRxJ51g0MWZZ8UxTq8m4ExVjAJ2p76TGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+CqDjFGvn6kO78FrFpuZCWnGd8CYXzKVJ-sOVe4XZFXKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACtk4+AGZtqw5CVSF2wuuAyMwxP6QSx2baAF1ejtSBtwkW8s8A@mail.gmail.com> <CACtk4+Ag-Syr3oKPd8niOsDShtgjgvvDavTVN1Y4=2ecN5vc3w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 08:35:30 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+hmqSyHgg-RyaxRCWhe2QLpB7X94khj9Vv4-XGRepnFOw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2680ab2bac30533539590
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

--001a11c2680ab2bac30533539590
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:

>   Hello there,
> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not
> properly marked.
>
>   To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess,
> produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also=
,
> the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official
> (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and
> constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they al=
l
> appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by=
 a
> template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC=
's
> pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it
> doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official whil=
e
> it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>
>   The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught b=
y
> CC
>

CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so?


> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model
> counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and
> wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only=
 a
> template away from victory!
>
>   (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e}
> of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), declare it a=
s the
> modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu=
'e
> talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I
> call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted
> experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphin=
g
> of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
>
>   The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them
> mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
>
>   The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way,
> no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and
> thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
>

Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They also
spread false info about Lojban.

  The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or
> word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the offici=
al
> version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced befo=
re!
>
>   The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialec=
t
> to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le
> jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>
>   What would YOU do?
>

If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job needs
to be done.

Make a new course so that people start using it.


> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki's side=
,
> so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or fork th=
e
> thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talking about o=
ne
> half only.
>
> =E2=80=94 mu'o
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--001a11c2680ab2bac30533539590
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ciuak.prog@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ciuak.prog@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Hel=
lo there,<br>
I&#39;m genuinely offended by that the Crash Course&#39;s resources are not=
 properly marked.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as=
 you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even releva=
nt to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme =
of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma&#39;o =
and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they =
all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off =
by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the=
 CC&#39;s pages don&#39;t warn the reader this way. It is important to do s=
o, as it doesn&#39;t confuse that reader into thinking some construct is of=
ficial while it isn&#39;t. There are many solutions to this problem.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The first one is defining what a &quot;modern dialect=
 of Lojban&quot; as taught by CC</p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>CC isn=
&#39;t intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so?</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"> is, by t=
he community itself. For example: is the selpa&#39;i &#39;s JE model counte=
d? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and wouldn&#39;=
t get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we&#39;re only a te=
mplate away from victory!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki ca=
n add {moi&#39;i&#39;au&#39;e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in pat=
terns [sumti]&quot;), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new =
army of nintadni would flush the jbogu&#39;e talking about the peculiar swi=
mming patterns of salmon. Now that&#39;s what I call evil! In order to avoi=
d such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no =
such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners wo=
uld occur.)</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK&#39;s members&#=
39; cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget i=
t.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from th=
e wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on th=
e wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren&#39;t. Simp=
le, right?</p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Also one can remove other re=
sources that are not official Lojban. They also spread false info about Loj=
ban.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every nonst=
andard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and s=
how the official version. Suddenly we don&#39;t get any of the problems we&=
#39;ve experienced before!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and con=
sider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu&#=
39;u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo&#39;o.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 What would YOU do?</p></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job need=
s to be done.</div><div><br></div><div>Make a new course so that people sta=
rt using it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=
=3D"ltr"> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from glek=
i&#39;s side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here=
, or fork the thread, if you feel like you&#39;re splitting hair in two and=
 talking about one half only.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=E2=80=94 mu&#39;o</p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--001a11c2680ab2bac30533539590--