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Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 08:07:54 +0000
Message-ID: <CACtk4+BKz596FaaWcSfUeTGcXZkv8dmx=7a9RRym7RoXfw+5eg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course
From: Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
To: mriste <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=
=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>>   Hello there,
>> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not
properly marked.
>>
>>   To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess,
produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also,
the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official
(BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and
constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all
appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a
template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's
pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it
doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while
it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>>
>>   The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught
by CC
>
>
> CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so=
?

  Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line,
"this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban", you're still linking to
the modified parser. If you removed that and you think you're "done",
you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and
have at this:

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa=
.27o_-_already
  Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' theez
effin' modern dialects of Lojban.

  I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like this
happens again. And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of
{banzu frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational.

  Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a
wiki. You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now
that's what I call a crime!

>> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model
counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and
wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only a
template away from victory!
>>
>>   (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add
{moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), d=
eclare
it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush
the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now
that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of
accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match
morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
>>
>>   The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them
mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
>>
>>   The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way,
no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and
thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
>
>
> Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They
also spread false info about Lojban.

  Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of the
problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many pages. Remov=
ing it
right away would solve the problem quickly.

>
>>   The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or
word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the official
version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced before=
!
>>
>>   The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every
dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica
be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>>
>>   What would YOU do?
>
>
> If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job
needs to be done.
>
> Make a new course so that people start using it.

  I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be more
critical about what you do, abuser.

>
>>
>> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki's
side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or
fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talking
about one half only.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 mu'o
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
21 maj 2016 07:36 &quot;Gleki Arxokuna&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is=
.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ciu=
ak.prog@gmail.com">ciuak.prog@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 Hello there,<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m genuinely offended by that the Crash Course&#39;s resource=
s are not properly marked.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you c=
an guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to =
it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of off=
icial (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma&#39;o and co=
nstructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all ap=
pear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a t=
emplate or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC=
9;s pages don&#39;t warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as =
it doesn&#39;t confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official=
 while it isn&#39;t. There are many solutions to this problem.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a &quot;modern dialect of Lo=
jban&quot; as taught by CC<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; CC isn&#39;t intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told=
 you so?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you=
9;ve removed the line, &quot;this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban&=
quot;, you&#39;re still linking to the modified parser. If you removed that=
 and you think you&#39;re &quot;done&quot;, you&#39;re wrong. I&#39;ve had =
5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this:<br>
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.=
27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already"> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Cou=
rse_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already</a><br>
=C2=A0 Now, {xa&#39;o} is experimental, so don&#39;t tell me you ain&#39;t =
teachin&#39; theez effin&#39; modern dialects of Lojban.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that=
 nothing like this happens again. And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your =
definition of {banzu frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages&#39; histories? It&#39;=
s illegal to do so on a wiki. You&#39;ve abused your admin rights in order =
to hide the truth. Now that&#39;s what I call a crime!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;&gt; is, by the community itself. For example: is the se=
lpa&#39;i &#39;s JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such quest=
ions night-long, and wouldn&#39;t get a brick solid answer. So why not capt=
ure it? Then we&#39;re only a template away from victory!<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add =
{moi&#39;i&#39;au&#39;e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns =
[sumti]&quot;), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army o=
f nintadni would flush the jbogu&#39;e talking about the peculiar swimming =
patterns of salmon. Now that&#39;s what I call evil! In order to avoid such=
 silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such p=
ersonal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would oc=
cur.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK&#39;s members&#39; ch=
eeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki=
. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki=
 and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren&#39;t. Simple, ri=
ght?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They=
 also spread false info about Lojban.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Nope, they can say it&#39;s unofficial Lojban, which =
is one way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there=
 are many pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.</p=
>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard=
 usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show th=
e official version. Suddenly we don&#39;t get any of the problems we&#39;ve=
 experienced before!<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider =
every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu&#39;u b=
anzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo&#39;o.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 What would YOU do?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job n=
eeds to be done.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Make a new course so that people start using it.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 I&#39;m working on one, so you can stop blaming me li=
ke that. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki=
&#39;s side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here,=
 or fork the thread, if you feel like you&#39;re splitting hair in two and =
talking about one half only.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =E2=80=94 mu&#39;o<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
 Groups &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt;&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, =
send an email to<a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com"> l=
ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt; To post to this group, send email to<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googl=
egroups.com"> lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt; Visit this group at<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojb=
an"> https://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt; For more options, visit<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/opto=
ut"> https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to<a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com"> lojba=
n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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ups.com"> lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; Visit this group at<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">=
 https://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
&gt; For more options, visit<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">=
 https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</p>

<p></p>

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