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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ac6si1164945lbc.3.2016.05.21.01.27.13 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 May 2016 01:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a; Received: by mail-lf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id e131so8714046lfb.0 for ; Sat, 21 May 2016 01:27:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.25.141.131 with SMTP id p125mr2650322lfd.8.1463819232945; Sat, 21 May 2016 01:27:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.165.75 with HTTP; Sat, 21 May 2016 01:26:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 11:26:33 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140242c652c7c053355f9d0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1140242c652c7c053355f9d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > > 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" > napisa=C5=82(a): > > > > > > > > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > >> > >> Hello there, > >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not > properly marked. > >> > >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, > produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also= , > the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official > (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and > constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they al= l > appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by= a > template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC= 's > pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it > doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official whil= e > it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem. > >> > >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taugh= t > by CC > > > > > > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you > so? > > Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line, > "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban" > You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and languages into one tutotiral". The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback. The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan. Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't the course if you can't do that. > , you're still linking to the modified parser. If you removed that and yo= u > think you're "done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the > table of contents, and have at this: > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_= xa.27o_-_already > Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' theez > effin' modern dialects of Lojban. > Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words. > I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like this > happens again. > I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again to show interest and being constructive. And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica be le > jbobau} is far too irrational. > Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban". > Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a > wiki. > I never did. Who told you so? > > You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's what > I call a crime! > Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and first check yourself. If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place. > >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model > counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and > wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only= a > template away from victory! > >> > >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add > {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"),= declare > it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush > the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now > that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of > accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-matc= h > morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.) > >> > >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make the= m > mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it. > >> > >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This > way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and > thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right? > > > > > > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They > also spread false info about Lojban. > > Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of the > problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many pages. Rem= oving it > right away would solve the problem quickly. > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban. Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is interested in fixing them. > > >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or > word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the offici= al > version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced befo= re! > >> > >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every > dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu fri= ca > be le jbobau ku ku xo'o. > >> > >> What would YOU do? > > > > > > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job > needs to be done. > > > > Make a new course so that people start using it. > > I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be more > critical about what you do, abuser. > People, see what people think of people who do things? > > >> > >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki's > side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or > fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talkin= g > about one half only. > >> > >> =E2=80=94 mu'o > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1140242c652c7c053355f9d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com<= /a>>:


21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> na= pisa=C5=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>> =C2=A0 Hello there,
>> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resource= s are not properly marked.
>>
>> =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you c= an guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to = it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of off= icial (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and co= nstructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all ap= pear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a t= emplate or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC= 9;s pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as = it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official= while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>>
>> =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lo= jban" as taught by CC
>
>
> CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told= you so?

=C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though= you've removed the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of = Lojban"


You are completely missing= the point. One cannot put all dialects and languages into one tutotiral&qu= ot;.
The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
The = job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn= 9;t then just don't the course if you can't do that.

=
=C2=A0

, you're still l= inking to the modified parser. If you removed that and you think you're= "done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at t= he table of contents, and have at this:
=C2=A0 https://mw.lojban.org/p= apri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already
=C2=A0 Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't = teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.


Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.=
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that= nothing like this happens again.


I'= ;ll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology.
M= any people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again to sho= w interest and being constructive.

And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu = frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational.


<= div>Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban&qu= ot;.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It'= s illegal to do so on a wiki.


I never d= id. Who told you so?
=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

You've abused y= our admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's what I call a c= rime!


Please, stop spreading lies. Plea= se, stop believing everybody and first check yourself.

=
If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask= question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place= .

=C2=A0

>> is, by the community itself. For example: is the se= lpa'i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such quest= ions night-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capt= ure it? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>>
>> =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add = {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns = [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army o= f nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming = patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such= silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such p= ersonal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would oc= cur.)
>>
>> =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' ch= eeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
>>
>> =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki= . This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki= and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, ri= ght?
>
>
> Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They= also spread false info about Lojban.

=C2=A0 Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban,= which is one way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80= =94 there are many pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem qu= ickly.


One page can cause much confusio= n if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban.
Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is int= erested in fixing them.

>
>> =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard= usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show th= e official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've= experienced before!
>>
>> =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider = every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u b= anzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>>
>> =C2=A0 What would YOU do?
>
>
> If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job n= eeds to be done.
>
> Make a new course so that people start using it.

=C2=A0 I'm working on one, so you can stop blamin= g me like that. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.

People, see what people think of people who do things?=C2=A0

> =C2=A0
>>
>> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki= 's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here,= or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and = talking about one half only.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 mu'o
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1140242c652c7c053355f9d0--