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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wd4si1117728lbb.1.2016.05.21.02.05.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 May 2016 02:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::229; Received: by mail-lf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id m64so57246095lfd.1 for ; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:05:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.158.131 with SMTP id h125mr2157905lfe.165.1463821540753; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.65.2 with HTTP; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.65.2 with HTTP; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:05:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 09:05:40 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114111a0f3872805335682f2 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114111a0f3872805335682f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" napisa=C5= =82(a): > > > > 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >> >> >> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" napisa=C5=82(a): >> > >> > >> > >> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >> >> >> >> Hello there, >> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not properly marked. >> >> >> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem. >> >> >> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught by CC >> > >> > >> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so? >> >> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban" > > > You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and languages into one tutotiral". > The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback. > The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban > The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan. > > Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't the course if you can't do that. > > >> >> , you're still linking to the modified parser. > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the official parser couldn't be nicely put online It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it. >> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this: >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa= .27o_-_already >> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban. > > > Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words. No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't an excuse. > >> >> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like this happens again. > > > I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again to show interest and being constructive. > >> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational. > > > Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban". Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le jbobau}? Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many. >> >> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a wiki. > > > I never did. Who told you so? > >> >> >> >> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's what I call a crime! > > > Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and first check yourself. It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again. > > If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place. I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate the wiki, but everyo= ne would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation feels like. >> >> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only a template away from victory! >> >> >> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), d= eclare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.) >> >> >> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it. >> >> >> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right? >> > >> > >> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They also spread false info about Lojban. >> >> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many pages. Remov= ing it right away would solve the problem quickly. > > > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban. What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statement. > Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is interested in fixing them. OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking about= . >> > >> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced before! >> >> >> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o. >> >> >> >> What would YOU do? >> > >> > >> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job needs to be done. >> > >> > Make a new course so that people start using it. >> >> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be more critical about what you do, abuser. > > People, see what people think of people who do things? You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictionary an= d a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS. Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and what? You don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done something good. And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a god. > >> > >> >> >> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talking about one half only. >> >> >> >> =E2=80=94 mu'o >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114111a0f3872805335682f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5= =82(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's= resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and,= as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even rel= evant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the the= me of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'= ;o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and th= ey all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked o= ff by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of = the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to d= o so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is= official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a "modern dial= ect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban.= Who told you so?
>>
>> =C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've r= emoved the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"<= br> >
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and = languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then= just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
> Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the= official parser couldn't be nicely put online

It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your u= sers about it.

>> If you removed that and you think you're "= done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the tabl= e of contents, and have at this:
>> =C2=A0 https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_= Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already
>> =C2=A0 Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you a= in't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.

No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word= . It isn't an excuse.

> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothi= ng like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again = to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu fric= a be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban&q= uot;.=C2=A0

Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu fric= a be le jbobau}? Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are= many.

>>
>> =C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's ille= gal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. No= w that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and firs= t check yourself.

It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good= image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren't true,= how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get off the= admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.

>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask= question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place= .

I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot= . I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off.= Hmmmm, who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate the wiki= , but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation f= eels like.

>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa= 9;i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions n= ight-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it= ? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki= can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in = patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a n= ew army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar = swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to a= void such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and = no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners= would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK's member= s' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forge= t it.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from= the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on= the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. S= imple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Loj= ban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> =C2=A0 Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one= way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are m= any pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lo= jban or not Lojban.

What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies you= r statement.

> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobod= y is interested in fixing them.

OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data y= ou're talking about.

>> >
>> >> =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every no= nstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page an= d show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems = we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and = consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo c= u'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaini= ng. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> =C2=A0 I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like tha= t. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?=C2=A0

You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an IRC bo= t, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALL= OWED TO DO BAD THINGS. Let's say you're running a big company that = has saved lives of hundreds and you, the boss, start killing random people.= You go to court and what? You don't even think they'll let you go = only because you've done something good.

And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think = you're a god.

>
>> > =C2=A0
>> >>
>> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense f= rom gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss= it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in= two and talking about one half only.
>> >>
>> >> =E2=80=94 mu'o
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails = from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from= it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to l= ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a114111a0f3872805335682f2--