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[2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wd4si1119385lbb.1.2016.05.21.02.22.23 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 May 2016 02:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::233; Received: by mail-lb0-x233.google.com with SMTP id k7so21353753lbm.0 for ; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.56.33 with SMTP id x1mr2481709lbp.46.1463822543351; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:22:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.165.75 with HTTP; Sat, 21 May 2016 02:21:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 12:21:43 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113491cab5f561053356be38 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113491cab5f561053356be38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > > 21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" > napisa=C5=82(a): > > > > > > > > 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > >> > >> > >> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" > napisa=C5=82(a): > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > >> >> > >> >> Hello there, > >> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not > properly marked. > >> >> > >> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can > guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to i= t. > Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of > official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and > constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they al= l > appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by= a > template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC= 's > pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it > doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official whil= e > it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem. > >> >> > >> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as > taught by CC > >> > > >> > > >> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told > you so? > >> > >> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the > line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban" > > > > > > You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and > languages into one tutotiral". > > The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback. > > The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban > > The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan. > > > > Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't > the course if you can't do that. > > > > > >> > >> , you're still linking to the modified parser. > > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the > official parser couldn't be nicely put online > > It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it. > Hm, official one is not for everyone. It requires installation. > >> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've had > 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this: > >> > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_= xa.27o_-_already > >> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' > theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban. > > > > > > Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words. > > No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't an > excuse. > Read CLL. > > > >> > >> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like > this happens again. > > > > > > I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again t= o > show interest and being constructive. > > > >> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica be > le jbobau} is far too irrational. > > > > > > Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban". > > Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le > jbobau}? > Why would? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. I don't even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just don't like them or don't need them. Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many. > There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular language at all. > >> > >> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a > wiki. > > > > > > I never did. Who told you so? > > > >> > >> > >> > >> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's > what I call a crime! > > > > > > Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and first > check yourself. > > It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you for > some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a bad > reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyone > will be {gleki} again. > So you haven't answered an important question. Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts. > > > If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask > question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this plac= e. > > I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know that > history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmmmm, who > could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate the wiki > Wrong, many more people administrate it. > , but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation > feels like. > Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it's not? > >> > >> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE mode= l > counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and > wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only= a > template away from victory! > >> >> > >> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add > {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"),= declare > it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush > the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now > that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of > accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-matc= h > morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.) > >> >> > >> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make > them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it. > >> >> > >> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This > way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and > thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right? > >> > > >> > > >> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. > They also spread false info about Lojban. > >> > >> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of > the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many pages.= Removing > it right away would solve the problem quickly. > > > > > > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong > Lojban or not Lojban. > > What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statement. > Wave lessons. > > Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is interested > in fixing them. > > OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking > about. > bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti Usual bridi: (x1 sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 sumti) (and so on) It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad. The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all myself. Also please, if you have time try fixing formatting where needed. >> > > >> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage > or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the > official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've > experienced before! > >> >> > >> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every > dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu fri= ca > be le jbobau ku ku xo'o. > >> >> > >> >> What would YOU do? > >> > > >> > > >> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job > needs to be done. > >> > > >> > Make a new course so that people start using it. > >> > >> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be mor= e > critical about what you do, abuser. > > > > People, see what people think of people who do things? > > You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictionary = and a > course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS. > Same for you. Whatever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread false data about me or anything or anyone else. Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds and > you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and what? You > don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done something > good. > > And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a god. > .i ue mi cevni ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki'= s > side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or > fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talkin= g > about one half only. > >> >> > >> >> =E2=80=94 mu'o > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113491cab5f561053356be38 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com<= /a>>:


21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <
gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> na= pisa=C5=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <
ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:=
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's= resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and,= as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even rel= evant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the the= me of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'= ;o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and th= ey all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked o= ff by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of = the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to d= o so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is= official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a "modern dial= ect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban.= Who told you so?
>>
>> =C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've r= emoved the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"<= br> >
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and = languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then= just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
> Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the= official parser couldn't be nicely put online

It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your u= sers about it.

Hm, official =C2=A0one is not for every= one. It requires installation.

=C2=A0

>> If you removed that and you think you're "= done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the tabl= e of contents, and have at this:
>> =C2=A0 https://mw.loj= ban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already=
>> =C2=A0 Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you a= in't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.

No matter what, an experimental word is an experiment= al word. It isn't an excuse.


Read C= LL.
=C2=A0

> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothi= ng like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again = to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu fric= a be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban&q= uot;.=C2=A0

Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {ban= zu frica be le jbobau}?


Why would? In m= y personal messages I use various languages all the time. I don't even = speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just don't li= ke them or don't need them.

Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many.<= /p>


There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not a= bout any particular language at all.
=C2=A0

>>
>> =C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's ille= gal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. No= w that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and firs= t check yourself.

It's no secret that you're doing this to keep= a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren'= t true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get = off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.

So you haven't answered an important question.
Slander= stops being slander only if supported by facts.

<= br>

>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask= question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place= .

I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced i= t a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be c= ut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate t= he wiki


Wrong, many more people adminis= trate it.
=C2=A0

, but every= one would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation feels like.<= /p>


Maybe because it superficially seems to= be cut off and in reality it's not?
=C2=A0

>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa= 9;i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions n= ight-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it= ? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki= can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in = patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a n= ew army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar = swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to a= void such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and = no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners= would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK's member= s' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forge= t it.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from= the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on= the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. S= imple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Loj= ban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> =C2=A0 Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one= way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are m= any pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lo= jban or not Lojban.

What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplif= ies your statement.


Wave lessons.
=
=C2=A0

> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobod= y is interested in fixing them.

OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false= data you're talking about.


bridi = =3D selbri + one or more sumti=C2=A0
Usual bridi: (x1 sumti)= (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 sumti) (and so on)

It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad.
The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all myself.
<= div>
Also please, if you have time try fixing formatting wher= e needed.


>> >
>> >> =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every no= nstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page an= d show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems = we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and = consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo c= u'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaini= ng. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> =C2=A0 I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like tha= t. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?=C2=A0

You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an= IRC bot, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'= ;RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS.

Same for you. Whatever y= ou do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread false data about = me or anything or anyone else.

Let's say you're running a big company that has saved liv= es of hundreds and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to co= urt and what? You don't even think they'll let you go only because = you've done something good.

And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think = you're a god.


.i ue mi cevni ki'= ;e do .i ku'i mi senpi

>
>> > =C2=A0
>> >>
>> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense f= rom gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss= it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in= two and talking about one half only.
>> >>
>> >> =E2=80=94 mu'o
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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