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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wd4si1187731lbb.1.2016.05.21.12.42.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 May 2016 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c; Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id e130so25504756lfe.3 for ; Sat, 21 May 2016 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.64.212 with SMTP id n203mr3441822lfa.54.1463859771214; Sat, 21 May 2016 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.65.2 with HTTP; Sat, 21 May 2016 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 21:42:51 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fc26aaa16ac05335f690f X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113fc26aaa16ac05335f690f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > >> >> 21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" >> napisa=C5=82(a): >> > >> > >> > >> > 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >> >> >> >> >> >> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" >> napisa=C5=82(a): >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz = : >> >> >> >> >> >> Hello there, >> >> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are no= t >> properly marked. >> >> >> >> >> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can >> guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to = it. >> Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of >> official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and >> constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they a= ll >> appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off b= y a >> template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the C= C's >> pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it >> doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official whi= le >> it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as >> taught by CC >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told >> you so? >> >> >> >> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the >> line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban" >> > >> > >> > You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and >> languages into one tutotiral". >> > The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback. >> > The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban >> > The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan. >> > >> > Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't >> the course if you can't do that. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> , you're still linking to the modified parser. >> > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the >> official parser couldn't be nicely put online >> >> It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it. >> > Hm, official one is not for everyone. It requires installation. > =E2=80=8BThen find a way around. You're good at this. You've written a whol= e lot of code, so you should be able to do that. And again, it's not an excuse. Why do I have to repeat this, anyway?=E2=80=8B > >> > >> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've ha= d >> 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this: >> >> >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C= _xa.27o_-_already >> >> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' >> theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban. >> > >> > >> > Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words. >> >> No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't a= n >> excuse. >> > > Read CLL > =E2=80=8B. > =E2=80=8BDone. What now? What would you like to prove? That I'm wrong? It's= you who's trying to win, and I'll kindly accept constructive criticism about=E2= =80=8B my knowledge, or age, or whatever. Go ahead =E2=80=94 I won't be sad about = it. At least you'll have a person you can cry at. > =E2=80=8B > >> > >> >> >> >> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like >> this happens again. >> > >> > >> > I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. >> > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again >> to show interest and being constructive. >> > >> >> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica b= e >> le jbobau} is far too irrational. >> > >> > >> > Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban". >> >> Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le >> jbobau}? >> > > Why would? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. = I > don't even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just > don't like them or don't need them. > =E2=80=8B > =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Either you're= a descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no matter if you want it or not; or you're a prescriptivist, drawing a straight, definite line between "correct" Lojban and not Lojban. If you're the first one, then what you've just said disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If you're the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this frivolously, but then please don't tell us such things. > > Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many. >> > > There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular language at al= l. > =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular language at all". Maybe I don't underst= and.=E2=80=8B > > >> >> >> >> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on = a >> wiki. >> > >> > >> > I never did. Who told you so? >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that'= s >> what I call a crime! >> > >> > >> > Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and firs= t >> check yourself. >> >> It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you for >> some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a bad >> reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyone >> will be {gleki} again. >> > So you haven't answered an important question. > Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts. > =E2=80=8BOh well, then why is everyone attacking you? There are so many pro= ofs around, and for every and each one you say, "this is nonsense, I couldn't have done that." And if explained further, you switch the topic. Honestly, do you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh criticism hurts, but that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But you do ignore it. > > >> > If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask >> question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this pla= ce. >> >> I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know tha= t >> history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmmmm, who >> could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate the wiki >> > > Wrong, many more people administrate it. > =E2=80=8BSure, but you're high up at the top. Too high.=E2=80=8B > , but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation >> feels like. >> > > Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it's no= t? > =E2=80=8BThere's a proverb in Poland. It roughly translates as, "if seven p= eople tell you you're sick, go to the doctor". Have a thought about it.=E2=80=8B > > >> >> >> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE >> model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, = and >> wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're onl= y a >> template away from victory! >> >> >> >> >> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add >> {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]")= , declare >> it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flus= h >> the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now >> that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of >> accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-mat= ch >> morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.) >> >> >> >> >> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make >> them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it. >> >> >> >> >> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. Thi= s >> way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and >> thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. >> They also spread false info about Lojban. >> >> >> >> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of >> the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many pages= . Removing >> it right away would solve the problem quickly. >> > >> > >> > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong >> Lojban or not Lojban. >> >> What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statement. >> > > Wave lessons. > =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepanci= es. Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late. > > > >> > Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is interested >> in fixing them. >> >> OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking >> about. >> > > bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti > Usual bridi: (x1 sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 > sumti) (and so on) > =E2=80=8BThat's a thing to correct indeed.=E2=80=8B But then again, what ar= e you trying to prove? > It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad. > =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that it'= s experimental?=E2=80=8B > The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all myself. > > Also please, if you have time try fixing formatting where needed. > =E2=80=8BI shall.=E2=80=8B > > >> > >> >> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usag= e >> or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the >> official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've >> experienced before! >> >> >> >> >> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every >> dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu fr= ica >> be le jbobau ku ku xo'o. >> >> >> >> >> >> What would YOU do? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Jo= b >> needs to be done. >> >> > >> >> > Make a new course so that people start using it. >> >> >> >> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be >> more critical about what you do, abuser. >> > >> > People, see what people think of people who do things? >> >> You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictionary= and a >> course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS. >> > Same for you. Whatever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to > spread false data about me or anything or anyone else. > =E2=80=8BIf you're evil in many people's eyes, it's not weird to have such = things happen to you. Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds and >> you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and what? Yo= u >> don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done something >> good. >> >> And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a god= . >> > > .i ue mi cevni ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bdo na cevni .i do zukte tai lo cevni .i do jinvi lo du'u = do vlipa lo ka zukte ji'i ro da na'e ri'i do .i na jetnu ku'i =E2=80=8B.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se ke manci je xlura=E2=80=8B tu'a lo= tcevli se kakne .i rarna du'o so'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu'i no lo racli cu djica lo ka turni stali .i do lifri za'a sai > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from >> gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it >> here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two = and >> talking about one half only. >> >> >> >> >> >> =E2=80=94 mu >> =E2=80=8B'o=E2=80=8B >> >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113fc26aaa16ac05335f690f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasie= wicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:


21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> na= pisa=C5=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:=
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's= resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and,= as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even rel= evant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the the= me of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'= ;o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and th= ey all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked o= ff by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of = the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to d= o so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is= official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a "modern dial= ect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban.= Who told you so?
>>
>> =C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've r= emoved the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"<= br> >
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and = languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then= just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
 > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the= official parser couldn't be nicely put online

It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your u= sers about it.

Hm, official =C2=A0one is not fo= r everyone. It requires installation.
<= div>
=E2=80=8BThen find a way around. You'r= e good at this. You've written a whole lot of code, so you should be ab= le to do that. And again, it's not an excuse. Why do I have to repeat t= his, anyway?=E2=80=8B
=

=C2=A0

>> If you removed that and you think you're "= done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the tabl= e of contents, and have at this:
>> =C2=A0 https://mw.loj= ban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already=
>> =C2=A0 Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you a= in't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.

No matter what, an experimental word is an experiment= al word. It isn't an excuse.


Read CLL
=E2=80=8B.

=E2=80=8BDone. = What now? What would you like to prove? That I'm wrong? It's you wh= o's trying to win, and I'll kindly accept constructive criticism ab= out=E2=80=8B my knowledge, or age, or whatever. Go ahead =E2=80=94 I won= 9;t be sad about it. At least you'll have a person you can cry at.
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B

> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothi= ng like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again = to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu fric= a be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban&q= uot;.=C2=A0

Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {ban= zu frica be le jbobau}?


Why woul= d? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. I don'= t even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just don&#= 39;t like them or don't need them.
=E2= =80=8B

=E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? What you're sa= ying is nonsense. Either you're a descriptivist and choose to describe = what's used, no matter if you want it or not; or you're a prescript= ivist, drawing a straight, definite line between "correct" Lojban= and not Lojban. If you're the first one, then what you've just sai= d disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If you're th= e second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" is t= remendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this frivolously,= but then please don't tell us such things.

=C2=A0<= /div>

Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or ther= e are many.


There is 1 Lojban bu= t la bangu is not about any particular language at all.

=E2=80=8BDefine &qu= ot;not any particular language at all". Maybe I don't understand.= =E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
=C2=A0

>>
>> =C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's ille= gal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. No= w that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and firs= t check yourself.

It's no secret that you're doing this to keep= a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren'= t true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get = off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.

So you haven't answered an important question.
= Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts.

=E2= =80=8BOh well, then why is everyone attacking you? There are so many proofs= around, and for every and each one you say, "this is nonsense, I coul= dn't have done that." And if explained further, you switch the top= ic. Honestly, do you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh cr= iticism hurts, but that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But yo= u do ignore it.
=

>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask= question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place= .

I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced i= t a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be c= ut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate t= he wiki


Wrong, many more people = administrate it.

=E2=80=8BSure, but you're high up at th= e top. Too high.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

, but everyone would think you = did that. Now you know what low reputation feels like.


Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off a= nd in reality it's not?

=E2=80=8BThere's a proverb in Pol= and. It roughly translates as, "if seven people tell you you're si= ck, go to the doctor". Have a thought about it.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0

>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa= 9;i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions n= ight-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it= ? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki= can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in = patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a n= ew army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar = swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to a= void such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and = no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners= would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK's member= s' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forge= t it.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from= the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on= the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. S= imple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Loj= ban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> =C2=A0 Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one= way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are m= any pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lo= jban or not Lojban.

What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplif= ies your statement.


Wave lessons= .

=E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepan= cies. Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Less= ons are just a bit late.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobod= y is interested in fixing them.

OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false= data you're talking about.


= bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti=C2=A0
Usual bridi: (x1 = sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 sumti) (and so on)

=E2=80=8BThat's a thing to correct indeed.=E2=80=8B But then again, = what are you trying to prove?

=C2=A0
It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad.
<= /div>

=E2=80= =8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that it= 9;s experimental?=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all mysel= f.

Also please, if you have time try fixing format= ting where needed.

=
=E2=80=8BI shall.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

>> >
>> >> =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every no= nstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page an= d show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems = we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and = consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo c= u'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaini= ng. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> =C2=A0 I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like tha= t. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?=C2=A0

You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an= IRC bot, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'= ;RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS.

Same for you. Wha= tever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread false data= about me or anything or anyone else.
<= div>
=E2=80=8BIf you're= evil in many people's eyes, it's not weird to have such things hap= pen to you.

Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of= hundreds and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court a= nd what? You don't even think they'll let you go only because you&#= 39;ve done something good.

And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think = you're a god.


.i ue mi cevni= ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi
=
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bdo na cevni .i do zukte= tai lo cevni .i do jinvi lo du'u do vlipa lo ka zukte ji'i ro da n= a'e ri'i do .i na jetnu ku'i
=E2= =80=8B.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se ke manci je xlura=E2=80=8B tu'= ;a lo tcevli se kakne .i rarna du'o so'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu&= #39;i no lo racli cu djica lo ka turni stali .i do lifri za'a sai
=

>
>> > =C2=A0
>> >>
>> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense f= rom gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss= it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in= two and talking about one half only.
>> >>
>> >> =E2=80=94 mu

=E2=80= =8B'o=E2=80=8B

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