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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wd4si1244114lbb.1.2016.05.21.22.17.02 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 May 2016 22:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::231; Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id k98so4284348lfi.1 for ; Sat, 21 May 2016 22:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.25.42.197 with SMTP id q188mr3618680lfq.2.1463894222414; Sat, 21 May 2016 22:17:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.165.75 with HTTP; Sat, 21 May 2016 22:16:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 08:16:22 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114075ae1da8e80533676fd0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114075ae1da8e80533676fd0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2016-05-21 22:42 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > > > On 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> >> >> 2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >> >>> >>> 21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" >>> napisa=C5=82(a): >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" >>> napisa=C5=82(a): >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz >> >: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Hello there, >>> >> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are >>> not properly marked. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can >>> guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to= it. >>> Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of >>> official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and >>> constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they = all >>> appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off = by a >>> template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the = CC's >>> pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it >>> doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official wh= ile >>> it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as >>> taught by CC >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told >>> you so? >>> >> >>> >> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the >>> line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban" >>> > >>> > >>> > You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and >>> languages into one tutotiral". >>> > The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback. >>> > The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban >>> > The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan. >>> > >>> > Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't >>> the course if you can't do that. >>> > >>> > >>> >> >>> >> , you're still linking to the modified parser. >>> > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because th= e >>> official parser couldn't be nicely put online >>> >>> It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it. >>> >> Hm, official one is not for everyone. It requires installation. >> > > =E2=80=8BThen find a way around. You're good at this. You've written a wh= ole lot > of code, so you should be able to do that. And again, it's not an excuse. > Why do I have to repeat this, anyway?=E2=80=8B > Why do I have to repeat to everyone that a lot of pages on the wiki are not official? > >>> >> >> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've >>> had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this: >>> >> >>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2= C_xa.27o_-_already >>> >> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' >>> theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban. >>> > >>> > >>> > Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words. >>> >>> No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't >>> an excuse. >>> >> >> Read CLL >> =E2=80=8B. >> > > =E2=80=8BDone. What now? What would you like to prove? That I'm wrong? It= 's you > who's trying to win, and I'll kindly accept constructive criticism about= =E2=80=8B > my knowledge, or age, or whatever. Go ahead =E2=80=94 I won't be sad abou= t it. At > least you'll have a person you can cry at. > CLL allows creating new word. > > > >> =E2=80=8B >> >>> > >>> >> >>> >> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like >>> this happens again. >>> > >>> > >>> > I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. >>> > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again >>> to show interest and being constructive. >>> > >>> >> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica >>> be le jbobau} is far too irrational. >>> > >>> > >>> > Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban". >>> >>> Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le >>> jbobau}? >>> >> >> Why would? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. >> I don't even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I j= ust >> don't like them or don't need them. >> =E2=80=8B >> > > =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Either you'= re a > descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no matter if you want i= t > or not; or you're a prescriptivist, drawing a straight, definite line > between "correct" Lojban and not Lojban. If you're the first one, then wh= at > you've just said disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If > you're the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" is > tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this frivolously, but > then please don't tell us such things. > > > >> >> Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many. >>> >> >> There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular language at >> all. >> > > =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular language at all". Maybe I don't under= stand.=E2=80=8B > La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever. > > >> >> >>> >> >>> >> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on >>> a wiki. >>> > >>> > >>> > I never did. Who told you so? >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now >>> that's what I call a crime! >>> > >>> > >>> > Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and >>> first check yourself. >>> >>> It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you fo= r >>> some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a bad >>> reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyon= e >>> will be {gleki} again. >>> >> So you haven't answered an important question. >> Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts. >> > > =E2=80=8BOh well, then why is everyone attacking you? > Everyone? I think only la guskant wrote a lot of false things. Who else is attacking me? you? You are just repeating false things like her instead of i verstigating everything yourself first. There are so many proofs around, and for every and each one you say, "this > is nonsense, I couldn't have done that." > And yet you are not providing these proofs. And if explained further, you switch the topic. > You switch the topic. When I noted that 1. not two people were (and even are) admins of the wiki as opposed to what you said. 2. I didn't remove anything requiring only "admin rights" despite what you said you simply avoided answering that. You could ask me politely "Is it true what one person said that you deleted something from the database of mediawiki what only administrators or even people having access to the database could do but people without this accesss couldn't?" I would have answered you pointing out to answers and proving that it's not true. Instead you started telling fairy-tales. You believed false data. Even now if you are as you say know mediawiki engine could check once again. Maybe the data you were talking about are still there and nobody deleted them. Honestly, do you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh criticism hurts, > but that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But you do ignore it. > "feedback" is "fix this and this into this and this (constructive feedback), I didn't understand this while reading" > >>> > If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, as= k >>> question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this pl= ace. >>> >>> I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know >>> that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmmm= m, >>> who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate the wiki >>> >> >> Wrong, many more people administrate it. >> > > =E2=80=8BSure, but you're high up at the top. Too high.=E2=80=8B > > No, I'm one of several admins. > , but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation >>> feels like. >>> >> >> Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it's >> not? >> > > =E2=80=8BThere's a proverb in Poland. It roughly translates as, "if seven= people > tell you you're sick, go to the doctor". Have a thought about it.=E2=80= =8B > > Luckily there are no 7 people. > >> >>> >> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE >>> model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long,= and >>> wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're on= ly a >>> template away from victory! >>> >> >> >>> >> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add >>> {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"= ), declare >>> it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flu= sh >>> the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now >>> that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of >>> accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-ma= tch >>> morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.) >>> >> >> >>> >> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and mak= e >>> them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. >>> This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wi= ki >>> and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, rig= ht? >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. >>> They also spread false info about Lojban. >>> >> >>> >> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of >>> the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many page= s. Removing >>> it right away would solve the problem quickly. >>> > >>> > >>> > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong >>> Lojban or not Lojban. >>> >>> What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statement= . >>> >> >> Wave lessons. >> > > =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepan= cies. > Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Lessons > are just a bit late. > > >> >> > >> >>> > Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is intereste= d >>> in fixing them. >>> >>> OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking >>> about. >>> >> >> bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti >> Usual bridi: (x1 sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 >> sumti) (and so on) >> > > =E2=80=8BThat's a thing to correct indeed.=E2=80=8B But then again, what = are you trying to > prove? > > > >> It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad. >> > > =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that i= t's > experimental?=E2=80=8B > Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which is fine by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you include transclusion) must be done in comparison with other pages. There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully. > > >> The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all myself. >> >> Also please, if you have time try fixing formatting where needed. >> > > =E2=80=8BI shall.=E2=80=8B > > > >> >> >> > >>> >> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard >>> usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show= the >>> official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've >>> experienced before! >>> >> >> >>> >> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider ever= y >>> dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu f= rica >>> be le jbobau ku ku xo'o. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> What would YOU do? >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. >>> Job needs to be done. >>> >> > >>> >> > Make a new course so that people start using it. >>> >> >>> >> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be >>> more critical about what you do, abuser. >>> > >>> > People, see what people think of people who do things? >>> >>> You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictionar= y and a >>> course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS. >>> >> Same for you. Whatever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to >> spread false data about me or anything or anyone else. >> > > =E2=80=8BIf you're evil in many people's eyes, it's not weird to have suc= h things > happen to you. > > Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds >>> and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and wha= t? >>> You don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done someth= ing >>> good. >>> >>> And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a go= d. >>> >> >> .i ue mi cevni ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi >> > > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bdo na cevni .i do zukte tai lo cevni .i do jinvi lo du'= u do vlipa lo ka > zukte ji'i ro da na'e ri'i do .i na jetnu ku'i > =E2=80=8B.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se ke manci je xlura=E2=80=8B tu'a = lo tcevli se > kakne .i rarna du'o so'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu'i no lo racli cu djica > lo ka turni stali .i do lifri za'a sai > >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from >>> gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it >>> here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two= and >>> talking about one half only. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> =E2=80=94 mu >>> =E2=80=8B'o=E2=80=8B >>> >>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114075ae1da8e80533676fd0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-05-21 22:42 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com<= /a>>:


On = 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

2016-05-2= 1 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:


21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> na= pisa=C5=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:=
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's= resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and,= as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even rel= evant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the the= me of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'= ;o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and th= ey all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked o= ff by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of = the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to d= o so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is= official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a "modern dial= ect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban.= Who told you so?
>>
>> =C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've r= emoved the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"<= br> >
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and = languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then= just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
 > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the= official parser couldn't be nicely put online

It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your u= sers about it.

Hm, official =C2=A0one is not fo= r everyone. It requires installation.
<= div>
=E2=80=8BThen find a way around. You're good at this. Y= ou've written a whole lot of code, so you should be able to do that. An= d again, it's not an excuse. Why do I have to repeat this, anyway?=E2= =80=8B

Why do I hav= e to repeat to everyone that a lot of pages on the wiki are not official?
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

>> If you removed that and you think you're "= done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the tabl= e of contents, and have at this:
>> =C2=A0 https://mw.loj= ban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already=
>> =C2=A0 Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you a= in't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.

No matter what, an experimental word is an experiment= al word. It isn't an excuse.


Read CLL
=E2=80=8B.

=E2=80=8BDone. What now? What would you like to prove? T= hat I'm wrong? It's you who's trying to win, and I'll kindl= y accept constructive criticism about=E2=80=8B my knowledge, or age, or wha= tever. Go ahead =E2=80=94 I won't be sad about it. At least you'll = have a person you can cry at.

CLL allows creating new word.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B

> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothi= ng like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again = to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu fric= a be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban&q= uot;.=C2=A0

Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {ban= zu frica be le jbobau}?


Why woul= d? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. I don'= t even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just don&#= 39;t like them or don't need them.
=E2=80=8B
=

=E2=80=8B"I don't l= ike them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Either you're a des= criptivist and choose to describe what's used, no matter if you want it= or not; or you're a prescriptivist, drawing a straight, definite line = between "correct" Lojban and not Lojban. If you're the first = one, then what you've just said disproves it, because you can't che= rrypick features. If you're the second, then I have to say, your "= straight, definite line" is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if yo= u're writing this frivolously, but then please don't tell us such t= hings.

=C2=A0

Keep it con= sistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many.

=
There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any parti= cular language at all.

<= /span>
=E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular language at all". Maybe= I don't understand.=E2=80=8B

La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever.<= /div>


=C2=A0
=C2=A0

>>
>> =C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's ille= gal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. No= w that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and firs= t check yourself.

It's no secret that you're doing this to keep= a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren'= t true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get = off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.

So you haven't answered an important question.
= Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts.

=E2=80=8BOh well, the= n why is everyone attacking you?
=

Everyone? I think only la guskant wrote a lot of false = things.
Who else is attacking me? you? You are just repeating fal= se things like her instead of i verstigating everything yourself first.

There are so ma= ny proofs around, and for every and each one you say, "this is nonsens= e, I couldn't have done that."

And yet you are not providing =C2=A0these proofs= .

And if exp= lained further, you switch the topic.

You switch the topic. When I noted that=C2=A0
1. not two people were (and even are) admins of the wiki as opposed t= o what you said.
2. I didn't remove anything requiring only &= quot;admin rights" despite what you said

you = simply avoided answering that.

You could ask me po= litely "Is it true what one person said that you deleted something fro= m the database of mediawiki what only administrators or even people having = access to the database could do but people without this accesss couldn'= t?" I would have answered you pointing out to answers and proving that= it's not true.

Instead you started telling fa= iry-tales. You believed false data.

Even now if yo= u are as you say know mediawiki engine could check once again. Maybe the da= ta you were talking about are still there and nobody deleted them.


=
Hones= tly, do you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh criticism h= urts, but that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But you do igno= re it.

"= feedback" is "fix this and this into this and this (constructive = feedback), I didn't understand this =C2=A0while reading"


<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">

>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask= question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place= .

I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced i= t a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be c= ut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate t= he wiki


Wrong, many more people = administrate it.

=
=E2=80=8BSure, but you're high up at the top. Too high.= =E2=80=8B
=C2=A0

No, I'm one of several admins.
=C2=A0

, but everyone would think you did that. Now you know wh= at low reputation feels like.


Ma= ybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it's no= t?

=E2= =80=8BThere's a proverb in Poland. It roughly translates as, "if s= even people tell you you're sick, go to the doctor". Have a though= t about it.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
<= /blockquote>

Luckily there are no 7 people.
= =C2=A0

>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa= 9;i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions n= ight-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it= ? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki= can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in = patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a n= ew army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar = swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to a= void such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and = no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners= would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK's member= s' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forge= t it.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from= the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on= the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. S= imple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Loj= ban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> =C2=A0 Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one= way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are m= any pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lo= jban or not Lojban.

What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplif= ies your statement.


Wave lessons= .

=E2=80=8BWave L= essons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepancies. Everything = gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Lessons are just a bi= t late.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobod= y is interested in fixing them.

OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false= data you're talking about.


= bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti=C2=A0
Usual bridi: (x1 = sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 sumti) (and so on)

=E2=80=8BThat&= #39;s a thing to correct indeed.=E2=80=8B But then again, what are you tryi= ng to prove?

=C2=A0
It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad.
<= /div>

=E2=80=8BWhich one? You= mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that it's experimental?= =E2=80=8B

Rea= d more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which is fine by i= tself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you include transclu= sion) must be done in comparison with other pages.

There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully.


=C2=A0
The list goes on but if i had time i wo= uld fix it all myself.

Also please, if you have ti= me try fixing formatting where needed.
=

=E2=80=8BI shall.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

>> >
>> >> =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every no= nstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page an= d show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems = we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and = consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo c= u'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaini= ng. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> =C2=A0 I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like tha= t. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?=C2=A0

You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an= IRC bot, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'= ;RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS.

Same for you. Wha= tever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread false data= about me or anything or anyone else.
<= div>
=E2=80=8BIf you're evil in many peo= ple's eyes, it's not weird to have such things happen to you.
=

Let's say you're runni= ng a big company that has saved lives of hundreds and you, the boss, start = killing random people. You go to court and what? You don't even think t= hey'll let you go only because you've done something good.

And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think = you're a god.


.i ue mi cevni= ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi
=
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bdo na cevni .i do zukte tai lo cevni .i = do jinvi lo du'u do vlipa lo ka zukte ji'i ro da na'e ri'i = do .i na jetnu ku'i
=E2=80=8B.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se = ke manci je xlura=E2=80=8B tu'a lo tcevli se kakne .i rarna du'o so= 'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu'i no lo racli cu djica lo ka turni sta= li .i do lifri za'a sai

>
>> > =C2=A0
>> >>
>> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense f= rom gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss= it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in= two and talking about one half only.
>> >>
>> >> =E2=80=94 mu

=E2=80=8B'o=E2=80=8B
<= br>

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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