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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ac6si1323902lbc.3.2016.05.22.01.18.40 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 May 2016 01:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::234; Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k98so4922979lfi.1 for ; Sun, 22 May 2016 01:18:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.79.132 with SMTP id d126mr3926508lfb.119.1463905120357; Sun, 22 May 2016 01:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.65.2 with HTTP; Sun, 22 May 2016 01:18:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 10:18:40 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114251aaaf1401053369f893 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114251aaaf1401053369f893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2016-05-21 22:42 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : > >> >> >> On 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >>> >>>> >>>> 21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" >>>> napisa=C5=82(a): >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" >>>> napisa=C5=82(a): >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz >>> >: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Hello there, >>>> >> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are >>>> not properly marked. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can >>>> guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant t= o it. >>>> Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of >>>> official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o an= d >>>> constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they= all >>>> appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off= by a >>>> template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the= CC's >>>> pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it >>>> doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official w= hile >>>> it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as >>>> taught by CC >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who tol= d >>>> you so? >>>> >> >>>> >> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the >>>> line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban" >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects an= d >>>> languages into one tutotiral". >>>> > The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback. >>>> > The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban >>>> > The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan. >>>> > >>>> > Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don'= t >>>> the course if you can't do that. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> , you're still linking to the modified parser. >>>> > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because >>>> the official parser couldn't be nicely put online >>>> >>>> It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it. >>>> >>> Hm, official one is not for everyone. It requires installation. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BThen find a way around. You're good at this. You've written a w= hole lot >> of code, so you should be able to do that. And again, it's not an excuse= . >> Why do I have to repeat this, anyway?=E2=80=8B >> > > Why do I have to repeat to everyone that a lot of pages on the wiki are > not official? > =E2=80=8BThen tell the users that "the parser is non-standard".=E2=80=8B > > >> >>>> >>> >> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've >>>> had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this: >>>> >> >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.= 2C_xa.27o_-_already >>>> >> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' >>>> theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words. >>>> >>>> No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't >>>> an excuse. >>>> >>> >>> Read CLL >>> =E2=80=8B. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BDone. What now? What would you like to prove? That I'm wrong? I= t's you >> who's trying to win, and I'll kindly accept constructive criticism about= =E2=80=8B >> my knowledge, or age, or whatever. Go ahead =E2=80=94 I won't be sad abo= ut it. At >> least you'll have a person you can cry at. >> > > CLL allows creating new word. > =E2=80=8B1 word only?=E2=80=8B In such a case you've just used up your limi= ts! su > > >> >> >> >>> =E2=80=8B >>> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing lik= e >>>> this happens again. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. >>>> > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once agai= n >>>> to show interest and being constructive. >>>> > >>>> >> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica >>>> be le jbobau} is far too irrational. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban". >>>> >>>> Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le >>>> jbobau}? >>>> >>> >>> Why would? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time= . >>> I don't even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I = just >>> don't like them or don't need them. >>> =E2=80=8B >>> >> >> =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Either you= 're a >> descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no matter if you want = it >> or not; or you're a prescriptivist, drawing a straight, definite line >> between "correct" Lojban and not Lojban. If you're the first one, then w= hat >> you've just said disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If >> you're the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" is >> tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this frivolously, but >> then please don't tell us such things. >> >> =E2=80=8BNow, YOU haven't answered my question.=E2=80=8B > >> >>> >>> Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many. >>>> >>> >>> There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular language at >>> all. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular language at all". Maybe I don't unde= rstand.=E2=80=8B >> > > La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever. > =E2=80=8BThen what are you really trying to teach? BPFK Lojban? CLL Lojban?= IRC Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?=E2=80=8B > > >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so o= n >>>> a wiki. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I never did. Who told you so? >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now >>>> that's what I call a crime! >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and >>>> first check yourself. >>>> >>>> It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you >>>> for some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a b= ad >>>> reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyo= ne >>>> will be {gleki} again. >>>> >>> So you haven't answered an important question. >>> Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BOh well, then why is everyone attacking you? >> > > Everyone? I think only la guskant wrote a lot of false things. > Who else is attacking me? you? You are just repeating false things like > her instead of i verstigating everything yourself first. > =E2=80=8BMaybe her proofs are false. But then again, I hear a lot of negati= ve responses when I get to mention you, so yeah. And make sure those proofs are false, because IRC logs, for example, won't lie to you. (And Guskant provided a bit of them, so it's not a false proof.)=E2=80=8B > > There are so many proofs around, and for every and each one you say, "thi= s >> is nonsense, I couldn't have done that." >> > > And yet you are not providing these proofs. > =E2=80=8BMaybe I don't.=E2=80=8B > > And if explained further, you switch the topic. >> > > You switch the topic. When I noted that > 1. not two people were (and even are) admins of the wiki as opposed to > what you said. > =E2=80=8BOK, but as I said, it doesn't matter that you're high up the hiera= rchy =E2=80=94 you're too high.=E2=80=8B > 2. I didn't remove anything requiring only "admin rights" despite what yo= u > said > =E2=80=8BYes, you're right about that.=E2=80=8B > > you simply avoided answering that. > > You could ask me politely "Is it true what one person said that you > deleted something from the database of mediawiki what only administrators > or even people having access to the database could do but people without > this accesss couldn't?" I would have answered you pointing out to answers > and proving that it's not true. > > Instead you started telling fairy-tales. You believed false data. > > Even now if you are as you say know mediawiki engine could check once > again. Maybe the data you were talking about are still there and nobody > deleted them. > > > Honestly, do you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh criticism >> hurts, but that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But you do igno= re >> it. >> > > "feedback" is "fix this and this into this and this (constructive > feedback), I didn't understand this while reading" > > =E2=80=8BYet "feedback" need not refer to a piece of work. And you better n= ot teach me constructive feedback while responding in agressive one-liners.=E2=80=8B > > > >>>> > If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, >>>> ask question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than th= is >>>> place. >>>> >>>> I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know >>>> that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmm= mm, >>>> who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate the wiki >>>> >>> >>> Wrong, many more people administrate it. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BSure, but you're high up at the top. Too high.=E2=80=8B >> >> > > No, I'm one of several admins. > =E2=80=8BAs I said, TOO high.=E2=80=8B > > >> , but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputatio= n >>>> feels like. >>>> >>> >>> Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it's >>> not? >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BThere's a proverb in Poland. It roughly translates as, "if seve= n people >> tell you you're sick, go to the doctor". Have a thought about it.=E2=80= =8B >> >> > > Luckily there are no 7 people. > =E2=80=8BThere are.=E2=80=8B > > >> >> >>>> >> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE >>>> model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long= , and >>>> wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're o= nly a >>>> template away from victory! >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add >>>> {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]= "), declare >>>> it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would fl= ush >>>> the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. No= w >>>> that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of >>>> accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-m= atch >>>> morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.) >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and >>>> make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. >>>> This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the w= iki >>>> and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, ri= ght? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. >>>> They also spread false info about Lojban. >>>> >> >>>> >> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out o= f >>>> the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are many pag= es. Removing >>>> it right away would solve the problem quickly. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong >>>> Lojban or not Lojban. >>>> >>>> What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statemen= t. >>>> >>> >>> Wave lessons. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepa= ncies. >> Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Lessons >> are just a bit late. >> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>>> > Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is >>>> interested in fixing them. >>>> >>>> OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking >>>> about. >>>> >>> >>> bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti >>> Usual bridi: (x1 sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 >>> sumti) (and so on) >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BThat's a thing to correct indeed.=E2=80=8B But then again, what= are you trying >> to prove? >> >> >> >>> It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that = it's >> experimental?=E2=80=8B >> > > Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which is fine > by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you include > transclusion) must be done in comparison with other pages. > > There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully. > =E2=80=8BThen either remove them or warn about them.=E2=80=8B > > >> >> >>> The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all myself. >>> >>> Also please, if you have time try fixing formatting where needed. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BI shall.=E2=80=8B >> >> >> >>> >>> >> > >>>> >> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard >>>> usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and sho= w the >>>> official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've >>>> experienced before! >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider >>>> every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u = banzu >>>> frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> What would YOU do? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. >>>> Job needs to be done. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Make a new course so that people start using it. >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be >>>> more critical about what you do, abuser. >>>> > >>>> > People, see what people think of people who do things? >>>> >>>> You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictiona= ry and a >>>> course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS. >>>> >>> Same for you. Whatever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to >>> spread false data about me or anything or anyone else. >>> >> >> =E2=80=8BIf you're evil in many people's eyes, it's not weird to have su= ch things >> happen to you. >> >> Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds >>>> and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and wh= at? >>>> You don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done somet= hing >>>> good. >>>> >>>> And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a >>>> god. >>>> >>> >>> .i ue mi cevni ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi >>> >> >> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bdo na cevni .i do zukte tai lo cevni .i do jinvi lo du= 'u do vlipa lo ka >> zukte ji'i ro da na'e ri'i do .i na jetnu ku'i >> =E2=80=8B.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se ke manci je xlura=E2=80=8B tu'a= lo tcevli se >> kakne .i rarna du'o so'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu'i no lo racli cu djic= a >> lo ka turni stali .i do lifri za'a sai >> >>> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from >>>> gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it >>>> here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in tw= o and >>>> talking about one half only. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> =E2=80=94 mu >>>> =E2=80=8B'o=E2=80=8B >>>> >>>> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114251aaaf1401053369f893 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-05-21 22:42 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasie= wicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:


On 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki= .is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@g= mail.com>:


21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> na= pisa=C5=82(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:=
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's= resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 To elaborate: the course is not a single page and,= as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even rel= evant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the the= me of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'= ;o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and th= ey all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked o= ff by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of = the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to d= o so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is= official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The first one is defining what a "modern dial= ect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban.= Who told you so?
>>
>> =C2=A0 Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've r= emoved the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"<= br> >
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and = languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then= just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
 > Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the= official parser couldn't be nicely put online

It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your u= sers about it.

Hm, official =C2=A0one is not fo= r everyone. It requires installation.
<= div>
=E2=80=8BThen find a way around. You're good at this. Y= ou've written a whole lot of code, so you should be able to do that. An= d again, it's not an excuse. Why do I have to repeat this, anyway?=E2= =80=8B

Why d= o I have to repeat to everyone that a lot of pages on the wiki are not offi= cial?

=E2= =80=8BThen tell the users that "the parser is non-standard".=E2= =80=8B

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<= span>

=C2=A0

>> If you removed that and you think you're "= done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the tabl= e of contents, and have at this:
>> =C2=A0 https://mw.loj= ban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already=
>> =C2=A0 Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you a= in't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.

No matter what, an experimental word is an experiment= al word. It isn't an excuse.


Read CLL
=E2=80=8B.

=E2=80=8BDone. What now? What would you like to prove? T= hat I'm wrong? It's you who's trying to win, and I'll kindl= y accept constructive criticism about=E2=80=8B my knowledge, or age, or wha= tever. Go ahead =E2=80=94 I won't be sad about it. At least you'll = have a person you can cry at.

CLL allows creating new word.

=E2=80=8B1 word only?=E2=80=8B I= n such a case you've just used up your limits! su

=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B

> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0 I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothi= ng like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology. > Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again = to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu fric= a be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban&q= uot;.=C2=A0

Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {ban= zu frica be le jbobau}?


Why woul= d? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. I don'= t even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just don&#= 39;t like them or don't need them.
=E2=80=8B
=

=E2=80=8B"I don't l= ike them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Either you're a des= criptivist and choose to describe what's used, no matter if you want it= or not; or you're a prescriptivist, drawing a straight, definite line = between "correct" Lojban and not Lojban. If you're the first = one, then what you've just said disproves it, because you can't che= rrypick features. If you're the second, then I have to say, your "= straight, definite line" is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if yo= u're writing this frivolously, but then please don't tell us such t= hings.


=E2=80=8BNow, YOU haven't a= nswered my question.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
=C2=A0=

Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many= .


There is 1 Lojban but la bangu= is not about any particular language at all.

=E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular langu= age at all". Maybe I don't understand.=E2=80=8B
<= /div>

La Bangu is for Loglan, = Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever.

=
=E2=80=8BThen what are you really trying to teach? BPFK = Lojban? CLL Lojban? IRC Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?=E2= =80=8B

=C2=A0


=C2=A0
=C2=A0

>>
>> =C2=A0 Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's ille= gal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
> =C2=A0
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. No= w that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and firs= t check yourself.

It's no secret that you're doing this to keep= a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren'= t true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get = off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.

So you haven't answered an important question.
= Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts.

=E2=80=8BOh well, the= n why is everyone attacking you?
=

Everyone? I think only la guskant wrote a lot of= false things.
Who else is attacking me? you? You are just repeat= ing false things like her instead of i verstigating everything yourself fir= st.

=E2=80= =8BMaybe her proofs are false. But then again, I hear a lot of negative res= ponses when I get to mention you, so yeah.
And = make sure those proofs are false, because IRC logs, for example, won't = lie to you. (And Guskant provided a bit of them, so it's not a false pr= oof.)=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

There are s= o many proofs around, and for every and each one you say, "this is non= sense, I couldn't have done that."

And yet you are not providing =C2=A0t= hese proofs.

=E2=80=8BMaybe I don't.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

=
And if explained further, you switch the topic.

You switch the topic.= When I noted that=C2=A0
1. not two people were (and even are) ad= mins of the wiki as opposed to what you said.

=E2=80=8BOK, but as I said, it doesn'= ;t matter that you're high up the hierarchy =E2=80=94 you're too hi= gh.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
2. I di= dn't remove anything requiring only "admin rights" despite wh= at you said

=E2=80=8BYes, you're right about that.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">

you simply avoided answering = that.

You could ask me politely "Is it true w= hat one person said that you deleted something from the database of mediawi= ki what only administrators or even people having access to the database co= uld do but people without this accesss couldn't?" I would have ans= wered you pointing out to answers and proving that it's not true.
=

Instead you started telling fairy-tales. You believed f= alse data.

Even now if you are as you say know med= iawiki engine could check once again. Maybe the data you were talking about= are still there and nobody deleted them.


Honestly, do = you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh criticism hurts, bu= t that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But you do ignore it.

"f= eedback" is "fix this and this into this and this (constructive f= eedback), I didn't understand this =C2=A0while reading"


<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BYet "feedback" need not refer to a pie= ce of work. And you better not teach me constructive feedback while respond= ing in agressive one-liners.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask= question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place= .

I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced i= t a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be c= ut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see =E2=80=94 two people administrate t= he wiki


Wrong, many more people = administrate it.

=
=E2=80=8BSure, but you're high up at the top. Too high.= =E2=80=8B
=C2=A0

No, I'm one of several admins.

=E2=80=8BAs I said, TOO high.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
=C2=A0<= /div>

, but everyone would think you did that. Now yo= u know what low reputation feels like.


Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it= 's not?

=E2=80=8BThere's a proverb in Poland. It roughly translates as, &q= uot;if seven people tell you you're sick, go to the doctor". Have = a thought about it.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0

Luckily there are no 7 people.

=E2=80=8BThere are.= =E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0

>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa= 9;i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions n= ight-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it= ? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki= can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (=E2=80=9Dx1 is a fish swimming in = patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a n= ew army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar = swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to a= void such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and = no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners= would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The second one is to put guns on BPFK's member= s' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forge= t it.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The real second one is to remove the whole CC from= the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on= the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. S= imple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Loj= ban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> =C2=A0 Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one= way out of the problem. But your course is different =E2=80=94 there are m= any pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lo= jban or not Lojban.

What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplif= ies your statement.


Wave lessons= .

=E2=80=8BWave L= essons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepancies. Everything = gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Lessons are just a bi= t late.
=C2=A0
= =C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
=C2=A0

> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobod= y is interested in fixing them.

OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false= data you're talking about.


= bridi =3D selbri + one or more sumti=C2=A0
Usual bridi: (x1 = sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 sumti) (and so on)

=E2=80=8BThat&= #39;s a thing to correct indeed.=E2=80=8B But then again, what are you tryi= ng to prove?

=C2=A0
It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad.
=

=E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa&= #39;o}? Have they told the listeners that it's experimental?=E2=80=8B

Read mo= re. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which is fine by itsel= f but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you include transclusion= ) must be done in comparison with other pages.

The= re are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully.

=E2=80=8BThen either remove them= or warn about them.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0


=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
The list goes on = but if i had time i would fix it all myself.

Also = please, if you have time try fixing formatting where needed.

=E2=80=8BI shall.=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
<= br>

>> >
>> >> =C2=A0 The third one is to do the following: for every no= nstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page an= d show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems = we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and = consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo c= u'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> =C2=A0 What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaini= ng. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> =C2=A0 I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like tha= t. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?=C2=A0

You're awesome =E2=80=94 you're developing an= IRC bot, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'= ;RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS.

Same for you. Wha= tever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread false data= about me or anything or anyone else.
<= div>
=E2=80=8BIf you're evil in many peo= ple's eyes, it's not weird to have such things happen to you.
=

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Let's say you're running a big co= mpany that has saved lives of hundreds and you, the boss, start killing ran= dom people. You go to court and what? You don't even think they'll = let you go only because you've done something good.

And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think = you're a god.


.i ue mi cevni= ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi
=
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bdo na cevni .i do zukte tai lo cevni .i = do jinvi lo du'u do vlipa lo ka zukte ji'i ro da na'e ri'i = do .i na jetnu ku'i
=E2=80=8B.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se = ke manci je xlura=E2=80=8B tu'a lo tcevli se kakne .i rarna du'o so= 'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu'i no lo racli cu djica lo ka turni sta= li .i do lifri za'a sai

>
>> > =C2=A0
>> >>
>> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense f= rom gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss= it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in= two and talking about one half only.
>> >>
>> >> =E2=80=94 mu

=E2=80=8B'o=E2=80=8B
<= br>

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