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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ai9si1101872lbc.2.2016.05.22.08.47.36 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 May 2016 08:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::231; Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id e131so16434667lfb.0 for ; Sun, 22 May 2016 08:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.25.42.197 with SMTP id q188mr4239631lfq.2.1463932055752; Sun, 22 May 2016 08:47:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.165.75 with HTTP; Sun, 22 May 2016 08:46:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 22 May 2016 18:46:56 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114075ae2896bf0533703e86 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114075ae2896bf0533703e86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2016-05-22 18:30 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < lojbab@lojban.org>: > On 5/22/2016 4:18 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote: > >> On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna > > wrote: >> > ... > >> =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Ei= ther >> you're a descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no >> matter if you want it or not; or you're a prescriptivist, >> drawing a straight, definite line between "correct" Lojban and >> not Lojban. If you're the first one, then what you've just said >> disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If you're >> the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" >> is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this >> frivolously, but then please don't tell us such things. >> >> >> =E2=80=8BNow, YOU haven't answered my question.=E2=80=8B >> >> > Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there >> are many. >> >> >> There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular >> language at all. >> >> >> =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular language at all". Maybe I do= n't >> understand.=E2=80=8B >> >> >> La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever. >> >> >> =E2=80=8BThen what are you really trying to teach? BPFK Lojban? CLL Lojb= an? IRC >> Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?=E2=80=8B >> > > ... > > > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches >> unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban. >> >> What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies >> your statement. >> >> >> Wave lessons. >> >> >> =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some >> discrepancies. Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar >> place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late. >> > > ... > > > It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad. >> >> >> =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listene= rs that >> it's experimental?=E2=80=8B >> >> >> Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which is >> fine by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you >> include transclusion) must be done in comparison with other pages. >> >> There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully. >> >> >> =E2=80=8BThen either remove them or warn about them.=E2=80=8B >> > > lojbab weighs in (informally), for what it's worth. > > OK. Maybe I am figuring out what this is about. Or maybe not. If this > "Crash Course" is on the wiki, then politeness to all the rest of us > readers would necessitate someone actually putting a link to it (which > should be included in ALL messages about the topic, since not everyone > reads every message). > > So I've never seen this "crash course". And I don't have the time or the > interest to try to find it. But there seems to be enough information to > offer some guidelines. > > 1. Both "The Wave Lessons" and the "Crash Course" seem to be distinct an= d > unitary items, just as is "CLL". It seems to me that any such unitary ite= ms > should be well-defined, and isolated. One way is to remove them complete= ly > from the normal Lojban web pages to something separate, and then include = a > single point of entry link that is used to get from the Lojban web pages = to > a home page for the unitary project. > > 2. If the unitary project is implemented on the same wiki as the Lojban > web pages (as seems to be the case here), there should be a single index > page that lists and links to all of the component pages making up the > project, and maybe a separate index to any pages that comment on, or make > reference to, the component pages. The project home page would link to > this. > > 3. If the project makes use of any experimental or non-standard language > features, there should be maintained a list of those features in one plac= e, > either on the project home page, or on the index page, or on some other > single page where people can look and see and thus easily evaluate whethe= r > they wish to make use of the material. It is not necessary to mark each > non standard use, so long as there is only the single entry point into th= e > materials, and the list of non-standard features is easily found from tha= t > single entry point. > > The standard language is defined by the baseline materials and any change= s > formally approved by byfy (which hopefully will maintain a single page > linking to all approved changes that are not included in the baseline > documentation). > Okay, who is ready to work with Wave lessons as described by la lojbab.? In my turn I will then work with the crash course. > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114075ae2896bf0533703e86 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-05-22 18:30 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG= <lojbab@lojban.org>:
On 5/22/2016 4:18 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote:
On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
 <mailto:= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>> wrote:
...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? Wha= t you're saying is nonsense. Either
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 you're a descriptivist and choose to descri= be what's used, no
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 matter if you want it or not; or you're a p= rescriptivist,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 drawing a straight, definite line between "= ;correct" Lojban and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not Lojban. If you're the first one, then w= hat you've just said
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disproves it, because you can't cherrypick = features. If you're
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the second, then I have to say, your "stra= ight, definite line"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you&= #39;re writing this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 frivolously, but then please don't tell us = such things.


 =E2=80=8BNow, YOU haven't answered my question.=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Keep it consistent.= Either there is 1 Lojban, or there
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are many.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is= not about any particular
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 language at all.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular langua= ge at all". Maybe I don't
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 understand.=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever.


 =E2=80=8BThen what are you really trying to teach? BPFK Lojban? CLL Lojban?= IRC
Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?=E2=80=8B

...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > One page can c= ause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What is not Lojban?= Give me a wiki page that exemplifies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 your statement.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Wave lessons.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official = Lojban with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discrepancies. Everything gets slowly reviewed = in this peculiar
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late.

...


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It uses experimental cmavo that y= ou consider bad.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have = they told the listeners that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it's experimental?=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki w= hich is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fine by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages = if you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 include transclusion) must be done in comparison with other p= ages.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully.


 =E2=80=8BThen either remove them or warn about them.=E2=80=8B

lojbab weighs in (informally), for what it's worth.

OK.=C2=A0 Maybe I am figuring out what this is about.=C2=A0 Or maybe not.= =C2=A0 If this "Crash Course" is on the wiki, then politeness to = all the rest of us readers would necessitate someone actually putting a lin= k to it (which should be included in ALL messages about the topic, since no= t everyone reads every message).

So I've never seen this "crash course".=C2=A0 And I don't= have the time or the interest to try to find it.=C2=A0 But there seems to = be enough information to offer some guidelines.

1.=C2=A0 Both "The Wave Lessons" and the "Crash Course"= seem to be distinct and unitary items, just as is "CLL". It seem= s to me that any such unitary items should be well-defined, and isolated.= =C2=A0 One way is to remove them completely from the normal Lojban web page= s to something separate, and then include a single point of entry link that= is used to get from the Lojban web pages to a home page for the unitary pr= oject.

2.=C2=A0 If the unitary project is implemented on the same wiki as the Lojb= an web pages (as seems to be the case here), there should be a single index= page that lists and links to all of the component pages making up the proj= ect, and maybe a separate index to any pages that comment on, or make refer= ence to, the component pages.=C2=A0 The project home page would link to thi= s.

3.=C2=A0 If the project makes use of any experimental or non-standard langu= age features, there should be maintained a list of those features in one pl= ace, either on the project home page, or on the index page, or on some othe= r single page where people can look and see and thus easily evaluate whethe= r they wish to make use of the material.=C2=A0 It is not necessary to mark = each non standard use, so long as there is only the single entry point into= the materials, and the list of non-standard features is easily found from = that single entry point.

The standard language is defined by the baseline materials and any changes = formally approved by byfy (which hopefully will maintain a single page link= ing to all approved changes that are not included in the baseline documenta= tion).


Okay, who is read= y to work with Wave lessons as described by la lojbab.?
In my tur= n I will then work with the crash course.


=
=C2=A0

lojbab


--
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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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