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[2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ac6si1615979lbc.3.2016.05.23.08.32.30 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 May 2016 08:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::233; Received: by mail-lb0-x233.google.com with SMTP id ww9so56641110lbc.2 for ; Mon, 23 May 2016 08:32:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.166.41 with SMTP id zd9mr6010236lbb.122.1464017550039; Mon, 23 May 2016 08:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.65.2 with HTTP; Mon, 23 May 2016 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 17:32:29 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3897203e9690533842645 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c3897203e9690533842645 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22 May 2016 at 17:46, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2016-05-22 18:30 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < > lojbab@lojban.org>: > >> On 5/22/2016 4:18 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote: >> >>> On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna >> > wrote: >>> >> ... >> >>> =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? What you're saying is nonsense. E= ither >>> you're a descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no >>> matter if you want it or not; or you're a prescriptivist, >>> drawing a straight, definite line between "correct" Lojban and >>> not Lojban. If you're the first one, then what you've just said >>> disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If you're >>> the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" >>> is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this >>> frivolously, but then please don't tell us such things. >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=8BNow, YOU haven't answered my question.=E2=80=8B >>> >>> >> Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there >>> are many. >>> >>> >>> There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular >>> language at all. >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular language at all". Maybe I d= on't >>> understand.=E2=80=8B >>> >>> >>> La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever. >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=8BThen what are you really trying to teach? BPFK Lojban? CLL Loj= ban? IRC >>> Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?=E2=80=8B >>> >> >> ... >> >> > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches >>> unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban. >>> >>> What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifie= s >>> your statement. >>> >>> >>> Wave lessons. >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some >>> discrepancies. Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar >>> place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late. >>> >> >> ... >> >> >> It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad. >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listen= ers that >>> it's experimental?=E2=80=8B >>> >>> >>> Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which i= s >>> fine by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you >>> include transclusion) must be done in comparison with other pages. >>> >>> There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully. >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=8BThen either remove them or warn about them.=E2=80=8B >>> >> >> lojbab weighs in (informally), for what it's worth. >> >> OK. Maybe I am figuring out what this is about. Or maybe not. If this >> "Crash Course" is on the wiki, then politeness to all the rest of us >> readers would necessitate someone actually putting a link to it (which >> should be included in ALL messages about the topic, since not everyone >> reads every message). >> >> So I've never seen this "crash course". And I don't have the time or th= e >> interest to try to find it. But there seems to be enough information to >> offer some guidelines. >> >> 1. Both "The Wave Lessons" and the "Crash Course" seem to be distinct >> and unitary items, just as is "CLL". It seems to me that any such unitar= y >> items should be well-defined, and isolated. One way is to remove them >> completely from the normal Lojban web pages to something separate, and t= hen >> include a single point of entry link that is used to get from the Lojban >> web pages to a home page for the unitary project. >> >> 2. If the unitary project is implemented on the same wiki as the Lojban >> web pages (as seems to be the case here), there should be a single index >> page that lists and links to all of the component pages making up the >> project, and maybe a separate index to any pages that comment on, or mak= e >> reference to, the component pages. The project home page would link to >> this. >> >> 3. If the project makes use of any experimental or non-standard languag= e >> features, there should be maintained a list of those features in one pla= ce, >> either on the project home page, or on the index page, or on some other >> single page where people can look and see and thus easily evaluate wheth= er >> they wish to make use of the material. It is not necessary to mark each >> non standard use, so long as there is only the single entry point into t= he >> materials, and the list of non-standard features is easily found from th= at >> single entry point. >> >> The standard language is defined by the baseline materials and any >> changes formally approved by byfy (which hopefully will maintain a singl= e >> page linking to all approved changes that are not included in the baseli= ne >> documentation). >> > > > Okay, who is ready to work with Wave lessons as described by la lojbab.? > In my turn I will then work with the crash course. > =E2=80=8BI shall. -- mu'o=E2=80=8B > > > > >> >> lojbab >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c3897203e9690533842645 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 22 May 2016 at 17:46, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-05-22 18:30 GMT+03:00 Bob LeC= hevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org>:
On 5/22/2016 4:18 AM, Bruno Panasiew= icz wrote:
On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
 <mailto:= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>> wrote:
...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8B"I don't like them"? Wha= t you're saying is nonsense. Either
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 you're a descriptivist and choose to descri= be what's used, no
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 matter if you want it or not; or you're a p= rescriptivist,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 drawing a straight, definite line between "= ;correct" Lojban and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not Lojban. If you're the first one, then w= hat you've just said
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disproves it, because you can't cherrypick = features. If you're
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the second, then I have to say, your "stra= ight, definite line"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you&= #39;re writing this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 frivolously, but then please don't tell us = such things.


 =E2=80=8BNow, YOU haven't answered my question.=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Keep it consistent.= Either there is 1 Lojban, or there
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are many.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is= not about any particular
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 language at all.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8BDefine "not any particular langua= ge at all". Maybe I don't
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 understand.=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever.


 =E2=80=8BThen what are you really trying to teach? BPFK Lojban? CLL Lojban?= IRC
Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?=E2=80=8B

...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > One page can c= ause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What is not Lojban?= Give me a wiki page that exemplifies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 your statement.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Wave lessons.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8BWave Lessons try do describe official = Lojban with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discrepancies. Everything gets slowly reviewed = in this peculiar
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late.

...


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It uses experimental cmavo that y= ou consider bad.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=8BWhich one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have = they told the listeners that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it's experimental?=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki w= hich is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fine by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages = if you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 include transclusion) must be done in comparison with other p= ages.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully.


 =E2=80=8BThen either remove them or warn about them.=E2=80=8B

lojbab weighs in (informally), for what it's worth.

OK.=C2=A0 Maybe I am figuring out what this is about.=C2=A0 Or maybe not.= =C2=A0 If this "Crash Course" is on the wiki, then politeness to = all the rest of us readers would necessitate someone actually putting a lin= k to it (which should be included in ALL messages about the topic, since no= t everyone reads every message).

So I've never seen this "crash course".=C2=A0 And I don't= have the time or the interest to try to find it.=C2=A0 But there seems to = be enough information to offer some guidelines.

1.=C2=A0 Both "The Wave Lessons" and the "Crash Course"= seem to be distinct and unitary items, just as is "CLL". It seem= s to me that any such unitary items should be well-defined, and isolated.= =C2=A0 One way is to remove them completely from the normal Lojban web page= s to something separate, and then include a single point of entry link that= is used to get from the Lojban web pages to a home page for the unitary pr= oject.

2.=C2=A0 If the unitary project is implemented on the same wiki as the Lojb= an web pages (as seems to be the case here), there should be a single index= page that lists and links to all of the component pages making up the proj= ect, and maybe a separate index to any pages that comment on, or make refer= ence to, the component pages.=C2=A0 The project home page would link to thi= s.

3.=C2=A0 If the project makes use of any experimental or non-standard langu= age features, there should be maintained a list of those features in one pl= ace, either on the project home page, or on the index page, or on some othe= r single page where people can look and see and thus easily evaluate whethe= r they wish to make use of the material.=C2=A0 It is not necessary to mark = each non standard use, so long as there is only the single entry point into= the materials, and the list of non-standard features is easily found from = that single entry point.

The standard language is defined by the baseline materials and any changes = formally approved by byfy (which hopefully will maintain a single page link= ing to all approved changes that are not included in the baseline documenta= tion).


Okay,= who is ready to work with Wave lessons as described by la lojbab.?
In my turn I will then work with the crash course.
=

=E2=80=8BI shal= l.

-- mu'o=E2=80= =8B

=C2=A0
<= span class=3D"">


=C2=A0

lojbab


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