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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u7si22562lbo.3.2016.06.02.07.57.08 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c; Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id b73so35750390lfb.3 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.20.97 with SMTP id k94mr3999316lfi.207.1464879428538; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.157.147 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 16:57:08 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Nomenclature of the periodic table From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11406b62fa186f05344cd138 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11406b62fa186f05344cd138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2 June 2016 at 16:31, la pluja wrote: > Something that has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclatur= e > of the chemical elements. > I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is that > lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically. > So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after > there position in the week. > Monday (or "is a monday") for example is *pavdei *(a construct of the > rafsi of pa and djedi), literally "one-day". > > On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements > (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their > trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever. > > Why is this? It's like calling monday *mondei * in lojba. > Well, there are problems with Ndei either. pavdei could as well mean "one-day-long", but this is *not* the official meaning. The way to solve this is to use a type-3 fu'ivla, like deirpa, deinre... sadly no-one uses them, and we're using horrible words. Note that there are 2 ways (well, 3, if you count the Ndei approach) numbers are used in lujvo: #1: as a literal quotation of the number: pavypa'a [< pa pacna =3D 1 hope] =3D pacna be fi li pa (pacna3 is the probability with which an event will occur =E2= =80=93 so here, "hope w/ probability 1"); #2: as the number of things that satisfy a given place: rolcti [< ro citka =3D all eat] =3D [ka'e] citka be ro da (=3D "omnivore"; here ro (all) occur= s as the number of things x1 eats (here: number of things x1 *can* eat)). > > I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in > their nuclei, which defines the chemical element > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element). > > An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi of the numbers > with the rafsi of > > *ratni. *An example: > > *pavrat* > One thing to tell you: brivla always end with vowels, so you'll have to stick to pavratni instead (pavrat is a cmevla). > > *x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 > is hydrogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2* > As per usage #1 of numbers in lujvo, this is correct. I'll try doing something of an automatic insertion of such lujvo into the JVS database. > and/or > > > *x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen* > Now, that's a different story =E2=80=93 you can't do things like that. pavr= atmai [< pa ratni marji =3D 1 atom made-of] would be OK. (The place structure would be = a bit more complex: "x1 is made of H of isotope x2, in form x3"). > The latter definition could of course also be made with *gunma* > or something similar. > Not really gunma. -- mu'o > > Any thoughts on that? > > (Another proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and > such should be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton] > instead of *protoni * or *nurto= ni > * respectively. Then it would > be necessary to define unambigious valsi for quantum states) > That's an overkill, I think, but I'm not sure. > > I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply > bugged me several days, so what do you think of it? > ^ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11406b62fa186f05344cd138 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 2 June 2016 at 16:31, la pluja <hr.muendler@gmail.com> wrote:
Something that has bugged= me the last few days is the current nomenclature of the chemical elements.=
I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is th= at lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically.
So for= an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after there posit= ion in the week.
Monday (or "is a monday") for example is p= avdei (a construct of the rafsi of pa and djedi), literally "one-d= ay".

On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical ele= ments (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based= on their trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever.

Why is this? = It's like calling monday mondei in lojba.

Well, there are problems with = Ndei either. pavdei could as well mea= n "one-day-long", but this is *not* the official meaning.
The way to solve this is to use a type-3 fu'ivla, like deirpa, deinre... sadly = no-one uses them, and we're using horrible words.
Note that t= here are 2 ways (well, 3, if you count the Ndei=C2=A0approach) numbers are used in lujvo:
#1: as a literal qu= otation of the number: pavypa'a [< pa pacna =3D 1 hope] =3D pacna be fi li pa (pacna3 is the p= robability with which an event will occur =E2=80=93 so here, "hope w/ = probability 1");
#2: as the number of things that satisfy a = given place: rolcti [< ro citka =3D all eat] =3D [ka'e] c= itka be ro da (=3D "omnivore"; here ro (all) occurs as the number of things x1 eats (here: number of t= hings x1 *can* eat)).
=C2=A0

I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons = in their nuclei, which defines the chemical element (https://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Chemical_element).

An possible implementation would b= e to combine the rafsi of the numbers with the rafsi of ratni.

= An example:
=C2=A0pavrat

One thing to tell you: brivla always end with vowels, so you'll have = to stick to pavratni instead (pavrat is a cmevla).
=C2=A0
x1 is an atom = of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 is hyd= rogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2

As per usage #1 of numbers in lujvo, this is correct.

I'll try doing something of an automatic insertio= n of such lujvo into the JVS database.
=C2=A0
=
and/or=

x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen

Now, that's a different story = =E2=80=93 you can't do things like that. pavrat= mai [< pa ratni marji =3D 1 atom m= ade-of] would be OK. (The place structure would be a bit more complex: &quo= t;x1 is made of H of isotope x2, in form x3").
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex">
The latter definition could of course also be made with gunma or so= mething similar.

Not really gunma.

-- mu'o
=C2=A0

Any thoughts on that?

(Ano= ther proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and such sho= uld be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton]
in= stead of protoni or nurtoni respectively. Then it would be ne= cessary to define unambigious valsi for quantum states)

That's an overkill, I think, but I'm not sur= e.
=C2=A0

I am neither= a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply bugged me several= days, so what do you think of it?

^= =C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11406b62fa186f05344cd138--