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[216.109.115.157]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j15si58545ywb.2.2016.06.02.08.21.11 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.157 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.157; Received: from [66.196.81.171] by nm48.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 2016 15:21:11 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.218] by tm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 2016 15:21:11 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 2016 15:21:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 118241.30497.bm@omp1027.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: JNJON.kVM1mVQwj7b9Wqmor3qVE6YCUqv3LgUYN8dRBHOIJA.NDNjk7iY5t8xS9 FB3HhMpxzm0cPa9BVL4iSDUxzKXiqrXGAb6xb5txo3Tq_77fUfQ.x_uBUOgC1Xxdm33MftPsLyG1 cZyOCXWRX0BmHZ8AqimZxcaSQaKOP_XXQavrJ7g4lC3cTULg6Q35Y6WObaFdWoU1K4gQHddA1wFW _4crPVOdBJUsPN8p3hTR0D7ryxrQfIRSS77zVGLnSdNpSfl3By2Z32fqKOejd8dW19kgCL13fv8h eoQMzEGABnr2_Kst6gEl2WH75vS3LCxCWEyxOj5nQobpIi9F1CKhbbW.VO7BLvBfS7DfmmSeW0.z jdT5qMnpbnUbAwzgOeToz6vdowsD19F0_z2ZJ0Mz1FqjPmgYoLAsqaLkQgUoH_R5lUawUzNDBg_S 1BuTXk74N5od.B4NR93s5VSYZzT93wbR73uGv8aX8FaxzpMLZMshMYg8Z35oybYL5ud7w3fay4mw lzW3fzoV8kIdxNXlmGnZrO8ctGlG.bSwtZfOjdOg4jPYzAANIaA-- Received: from jws10683.mail.bf1.yahoo.com by sendmailws136.mail.bf1.yahoo.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 15:21:10 +0000; 1464880870.546 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 15:21:09 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Message-ID: <395311204.3717831.1464880870022.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] Nomenclature of the periodic table MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3717830_429304620.1464880870012" Content-Length: 14968 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.157 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com X-Original-From: John E Clifford Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_3717830_429304620.1464880870012 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And, of course, they have the day numbers wrong anyhow (to revive an old ar= gument that has been dormant too long). =C2=A0=20 On Thursday, June 2, 2016 9:57 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote: =20 =20 On 2 June 2016 at 16:31, la pluja wrote: Something that has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclature = of the chemical elements. I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is that l= ojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically. So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after there= position in the week. Monday (or "is a monday") for example is pavdei (a construct of the rafsi o= f pa and djedi), literally "one-day". On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements (https://jb= o.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their trivia names i= n latin/english or whatsoever. Why is this? It's like calling monday mondei in lojba. Well, there are problems with Ndei either. pavdei could as well mean "one-d= ay-long", but this is *not* the official meaning.The way to solve this is t= o use a type-3 fu'ivla, like deirpa, deinre... sadly no-one uses them, and = we're using horrible words.Note that there are 2 ways (well, 3, if you coun= t the Ndei=C2=A0approach) numbers are used in lujvo:#1: as a literal quotat= ion of the number: pavypa'a [< pa pacna =3D 1 hope] =3D pacna be fi li pa (= pacna3 is the probability with which an event will occur =E2=80=93 so here,= "hope w/ probability 1");#2: as the number of things that satisfy a given = place: rolcti [< ro citka =3D all eat] =3D [ka'e] citka be ro da (=3D "omni= vore"; here ro (all) occurs as the number of things x1 eats (here: number o= f things x1 *can* eat)).=C2=A0 I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in thei= r nuclei, which defines the chemical element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki= /Chemical_element). An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi of the numbers wit= h the rafsi of ratni. An example: =C2=A0pavrat One thing to tell you: brivla always end with vowels, so you'll have to sti= ck to pavratni instead (pavrat is a cmevla).=C2=A0 x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 is = hydrogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2 As per usage #1 of numbers in lujvo, this is correct. I'll try doing something of an automatic insertion of such lujvo into the J= VS database.=C2=A0 and/or x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen Now, that's a different story =E2=80=93 you can't do things like that. pavr= atmai [< pa ratni marji =3D 1 atom made-of] would be OK. (The place structu= re would be a bit more complex: "x1 is made of H of isotope x2, in form x3"= ).=C2=A0 The latter definition could of course also be made with gunma or something = similar. Not really gunma. -- mu'o=C2=A0 Any thoughts on that? (Another proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and such= should be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton] instead of protoni or nurtoni respectively. Then it would be necessary to d= efine unambigious valsi for quantum states) That's an overkill, I think, but I'm not sure.=C2=A0 I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply bugge= d me several days, so what do you think of it? ^=C2=A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_3717830_429304620.1464880870012 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And, of course, they h= ave the day numbers wrong anyhow (to revive an old argument that has been d= ormant too long).  


=
On Thursday, June 2,= 2016 9:57 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:




On 2 Ju= ne 2016 at 16:31, la pluja <hr.muendler@gmail.com> wrot= e:
Some= thing that has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclature of t= he chemical elements.
I am relatively new to lojban but w= hat I have learned quite early is that lojban tries to name every object/id= ea/concept systematically.
So for an example the lojban n= ames for days in a week are named after there position in the week.
Monday (or "is a monday") for example is pavdei (a constr= uct of the rafsi of pa and djedi), literally "one-day".
<= br clear=3D"none">On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical el= ements (https://jbo.wikipedia.= org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their trivia names in latin/= english or whatsoever.

Why is this? It= 's like calling monday mondei in lojba.

Well, there are problems with = Ndei either. pavdei<= /font> could as well mean "one-day-long", but this is *not* the official me= aning.
The way to solve this is to use a type-3 fu'ivla, like deirpa, deinre..= . sadly no-one uses them, and we're using horrible words.
Note th= at there are 2 ways (well, 3, if you count the Ndei=  approach) numbers are used in lujvo:
#1: as a litera= l quotation of the number: pavypa'a [< pa pacna =3D 1 hope] =3D pacna be fi li pa (pacna3 is the p= robability with which an event will occur =E2=80=93 so here, "hope w/ proba= bility 1");
#2: as the number of things that satisfy a given plac= e: rolcti [< ro c= itka =3D all eat] =3D [ka'e] citka be ro da<= /font> (=3D "omnivore"; here ro (all) occurs= as the number of things x1 eats (here: number of things x1 *can* eat)).
 

I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of pro= tons in their nuclei, which defines the chemical element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element)= .

An possible implementation would= be to combine the rafsi of the numbers with the rafsi of ratni.

An example:=
 pavrat

One thing to tell you: brivla always en= d with vowels, so you'll have to stick to pavratni<= /font> instead (pavrat is a cmevla).
 
x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 of isotope = number/atomic weight x2; x1 is hydrogen of isotope number/atomic= weight x2

As per usage #1 of numbers in lujvo, this is correct.

I'll try doing something of an automat= ic insertion of such lujvo into the JVS database.
 
and/or

x1 i= s a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen

Now, that's a different= story =E2=80=93 you can't do things like that. pav= ratmai [< pa ratni marji =3D 1 ato= m made-of] would be OK. (The place structure would be a bit more complex: "= x1 is made of H of isotope x2, in form x3").
 
The latter definition could of course also be made with gunma or something similar.

Not really gunma.

-- mu'o
 

Any thoughts on that?

(Another p= roposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and such should be= called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton]
ins= tead of protoni or nurtoni respectively. Then it would be necessary to d= efine unambigious valsi for quantum states)

That's an overkill, I think, but I= 'm not sure.
 

I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojban= ist but this simply bugged me several days, so what do you think of it?

^ 
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/gro= up/lojban.
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