Received: from mail-lb0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]:33311) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1b8Ukg-0008MN-SE for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:48 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f192.google.com with SMTP id dj16sf10650231lbb.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=v+HIb7/HyfdRtaTpKgCEZj/iv2rz3YYvCezjdpRzxqU=; b=LufESm0h/lFkuNYM5q3N4zEBxzw3dLZCXyiOt62VZhInnvzgaC8pu36aQKzkEiXnb6 VrI9TyoOA7AiDwj5M4RFWzimvT2ncFtfz2qr34oSwDCSRVWrTJcasAVAXkRy17nR0GSr AtjMv8bG1JfNBsdy6RzY6q+1Pmn5rv4c4trVmhiZ7F0dLJnfrE4dJZvmnspgdU/0MiGk 172+oNMNv1/0IQI8IcYh1TajICyJJKcyl1wKrhCNjU/xDL0SjoLQEVhs1dR1WMAPs/ch iMFjBPBJhqi4EKYKeIrht+x6dzuXOEtrm0ayPq/BN4YhIwx5ClqvIvFhOtfj0EPwt/9l PJUg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=v+HIb7/HyfdRtaTpKgCEZj/iv2rz3YYvCezjdpRzxqU=; b=sLGHv7ZQZINw0wBWUTGyBd0oYBJWzkjHlmzLP1JsFzQH+UBme5vG7OlW+wHDpvnpUJ 0RrbeGXnctoyKfu1c2B2CgIBS8HxqrOn4gmgcWuHVB2fx40zdIK3c1pLFgXWSm5aTur0 VLrW/KcWGyDPFraAEw9N2e8UTgQiNvpnitrjulDIERPIJtSVd99RQ5/QlUhpXCEkhjGs bQyELhU3iqkingO8BZVFxk7tEvgyGdAibrO2TQ06m5FnkRmnmFKu0Prni/x4TWiQIQY+ JKknA5Yvb6mxouYSfqvy4VfwL36lNgSmqku2/yGYb47/E0Q2AyxR2e/b2Q6ZN0X5Slp4 P9eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=v+HIb7/HyfdRtaTpKgCEZj/iv2rz3YYvCezjdpRzxqU=; b=hW1C0Q1bgGX3n4vXOcYKopow77u+2SyH+ZhQc39TtbUs5R7zLW1Z7wX1p8ipj5qwZ+ x/t6PS9JpYaEsy3cZL7qvhnSD9HRVhve1Q/KJJoYXOQNAk8s+1kFmFRMF9bInlszD12P 11dxehaUJmvY/V3//BMCL2fIxjv6p1nBZhlqwMhKYI4I+CnDbO2BVwj5r2tROdSO95jL eZ12lcckGWyuY32kW/ZRpbEbitXcdprwQoij9CosPnAIACf9aqnkMVo6ELUpwgEZNdiX qiAUSUdnKyChuS6ka9tuPcScMtGBBWUFhhUkzJeAyRCKWHnUp+xA1cJlQHb6HFEm9CLV iBIA== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIio4FFhW92t376JdMkoUKHicSmYVIO6/WYfiXSzeIHcbnfq5DIhQXAfRfxHfg7Yw== X-Received: by 10.28.51.11 with SMTP id z11mr53637wmz.12.1464882095922; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.28.145.79 with SMTP id t76ls1398745wmd.29.canary; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.28.45.145 with SMTP id t139mr3849059wmt.1.1464882095377; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com. [2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ur4si40225lbc.0.2016.06.02.08.41.35 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::230; Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id k98so36526086lfi.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.20.97 with SMTP id k94mr4064017lfi.207.1464882095166; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.157.147 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <395311204.3717831.1464880870022.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <395311204.3717831.1464880870022.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 17:41:35 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Nomenclature of the periodic table From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11406b62eb9c1c05344d709a X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11406b62eb9c1c05344d709a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2 June 2016 at 17:21, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > And, of course, they have the day numbers wrong anyhow (to revive an old > argument that has been dormant too long). > That makes matters even worse, but there's a solution. Let's use element days! (that is, lurdei, fagdei, jaurdei, mudydei, jimdei, tedydei, soldei -= - Moon-, Fire-, Water-, Wood-, Metal-, Earth- and Sun-day) -- mu'o > On Thursday, June 2, 2016 9:57 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz > wrote: > > > > > On 2 June 2016 at 16:31, la pluja wrote: > > Something that has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclatur= e > of the chemical elements. > I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is that > lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically. > So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after > there position in the week. > Monday (or "is a monday") for example is *pavdei *(a construct of the > rafsi of pa and djedi), literally "one-day". > > On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements > (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their > trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever. > > Why is this? It's like calling monday *mondei * in lojba. > > > Well, there are problems with Ndei either. pavdei could as well mean > "one-day-long", but this is *not* the official meaning. > The way to solve this is to use a type-3 fu'ivla, like deirpa, deinre... > sadly no-one uses them, and we're using horrible words. > Note that there are 2 ways (well, 3, if you count the Ndei approach) > numbers are used in lujvo: > #1: as a literal quotation of the number: pavypa'a [< pa pacna =3D 1 hope= ] > =3D pacna be fi li pa (pacna3 is the probability with which an event will > occur =E2=80=93 so here, "hope w/ probability 1"); > #2: as the number of things that satisfy a given place: rolcti [< ro citk= a > =3D all eat] =3D [ka'e] citka be ro da (=3D "omnivore"; here ro (all) occ= urs as > the number of things x1 eats (here: number of things x1 *can* eat)). > > > > I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in > their nuclei, which defines the chemical element > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element). > > An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi of the numbers > with the rafsi of > > *ratni. *An example: > > *pavrat* > > > One thing to tell you: brivla always end with vowels, so you'll have to > stick to pavratni instead (pavrat is a cmevla). > > > > *x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 > is hydrogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2* > > > As per usage #1 of numbers in lujvo, this is correct. > > I'll try doing something of an automatic insertion of such lujvo into the > JVS database. > > > and/or > > > *x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen* > > > Now, that's a different story =E2=80=93 you can't do things like that. pa= vratmai > [< pa ratni marji =3D 1 atom made-of] would be OK. (The place structure > would be a bit more complex: "x1 is made of H of isotope x2, in form x3")= . > > > The latter definition could of course also be made with *gunma* > or something similar. > > > Not really gunma. > > -- mu'o > > > > Any thoughts on that? > > (Another proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and > such should be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton] > instead of *protoni * or *nurto= ni > * respectively. Then it would > be necessary to define unambigious valsi for quantum states) > > > That's an overkill, I think, but I'm not sure. > > > > I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply > bugged me several days, so what do you think of it? > > > ^ > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11406b62eb9c1c05344d709a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 2 June 2016 at 17:21, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <l= ojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
And, of course, they have the day numbers wrong anyhow (to r= evive an old argument that has been dormant too long).=C2=A0

That makes matters even wor= se, but there's a solution. Let's use element days! (that is, lurdei, fagdei, jaurdei= , mudydei, jimdei, tedyde= i, soldei -- Moon-, Fire= -, Water-, Wood-, Metal-, Earth- and Sun-day)

-- mu'o=
=C2=A0
On Thursday, June 2, 2016 9:57 AM, Br= uno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:




On 2 June 2016 at 16:31, la pluja <hr.muendler@gmail.com> wrote:
Something that has bugged me the last few days = is the current nomenclature of the chemical elements.
I a= m relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is that lojb= an tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically.
So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after the= re position in the week.
Monday (or "is a monday&quo= t;) for example is pavdei (a construct of the rafsi of pa and djedi)= , literally "one-day".

On th= e other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever.

Why is this? It's like calling monday m= ondei in lojba.


I p= ropose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in their n= uclei, which defines the chemical element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element).
<= br clear=3D"none">An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi = of the numbers with the rafsi of ratni.
An example:
=C2=A0= pavrat

=
One thing to tell you: brivla always end with vowels, so you'= ;ll have to stick to pavratni instead (pavrat is a cmevla).
=C2=A0
x1 is an atom of atomic num= ber 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 is hydrogen of isot= ope number/atomic weight x2
=

As per usage #1 of numbers in lujvo, thi= s is correct.

I'll try doing so= mething of an automatic insertion of such lujvo into the JVS database.
=C2=A0
and/or

x1 is a quantity of/= contains/is made of hydrogen

Now, that's a different story =E2= =80=93 you can't do things like that. pavratmai= [< pa ratni marji =3D 1 atom made= -of] would be OK. (The place structure would be a bit more complex: "x= 1 is made of H of isotope x2, in form x3").
=C2=A0
The latter definition= could of course also be made with gunma<= /a> or something similar.

Not really gunma.

-- mu'o
=C2=A0

That's an ov= erkill, I think, but I'm not sure.
=C2=A0

I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist= but this simply bugged me several days, so what do you think of it?
<= /blockquote>

^=C2=A0
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/gro= up/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11406b62eb9c1c05344d709a--