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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wd4si48263lbb.1.2016.06.02.12.53.39 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 12:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e; Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id w16so40980695lfd.2 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 12:53:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.29.85 with SMTP id d82mr4544076lfd.93.1464897218812; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 12:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.157.147 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:53:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 21:53:38 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Nomenclature of the periodic table From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140152c5c3ee5053450f6fe X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1140152c5c3ee5053450f6fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 2 June 2016 at 19:36, MorphemeAddict wrote: > I'm not a physicist (or a chemist) either, but one problem I foresee with > this approach is that the names of elements are frequently modified in the > names of the compounds those elements comprise, for example, carbon dioxide > (CO2). The prefix "di-" is also a number, so it would mean putting together > two or more number morphemes in such a way that they are still distinct and > understandable. Something like " Element6(*1)+Element8*2 ". > That's a thing I don't like either, because it'd both mix both of the ways to use numbers in lujvo, AND be ambiguous about which one is which. Alternatively, we could use type-3 fu'ivla, like ratrpa, ratnre etc., then employ joi (which, surprisingly has rafsi -jol- & -joi-). For example, CO2 would be ratnxa'yjoirelyratrbi. Um, that's quite long, but not too long in comparison to the English "carbon dioxide" equivalent. > Valence numbers can come into play, too. I've seen these a lot with iron > compounds. There are lots of different systems for adding numbers to these > element and compound names: letters of various alphabets (alpha, beta; A/a, > B/b; 1, 2), number prefixes from various languages (mono-, di-, tri- vs. > uni-, bi-). > No, we ain't putting Latin/Greek prefixes into Lojbanic lujvo! > > stevo > -- mu'o > > stevo > -- mu'o > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_5573762082181290215_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:31 AM, la pluja wrote: > >> Something that has bugged me the last few days is the current >> nomenclature of the chemical elements. >> I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is that >> lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically. >> So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after >> there position in the week. >> Monday (or "is a monday") for example is *pavdei *(a construct of the >> rafsi of pa and djedi), literally "one-day". >> >> On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements >> (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their >> trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever. >> >> Why is this? It's like calling monday *mondei * in lojba. >> >> I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in >> their nuclei, which defines the chemical element >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element). >> >> An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi of the numbers >> with the rafsi of >> >> *ratni. *An example: >> >> *pavrat* >> >> *x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 >> is hydrogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2* >> >> >> and/or >> >> >> >> *x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen* >> The latter definition could of course also be made with *gunma* >> or something similar. >> >> Any thoughts on that? >> >> (Another proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and >> such should be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton] >> instead of *protoni * or *nurtoni >> * respectively. Then it would >> be necessary to define unambigious valsi for quantum states ) >> >> I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply >> bugged me several days, so what do you think of it? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1140152c5c3ee5053450f6fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 2 June 2016 at 19:36, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not a physicist = (or a chemist) either, but one problem I foresee with this approach is that= the names of elements are frequently modified in the names of the compound= s those elements comprise, for example, carbon dioxide (CO2). The prefix &q= uot;di-" is also a number, so it would mean putting together two or mo= re number morphemes in such a way that they are still distinct and understa= ndable. Something like " Element6(*1)+Element8*2 ".

That's a thing I don't like either, = because it'd both mix both of the ways to use numbers in lujvo, AND be = ambiguous about which one is which. Alternatively, we could use type-3 fu&#= 39;ivla, like ratrpa, ratnre etc., then employ joi (which, surprisingly has rafsi -jol- &= -joi-). For example, CO2 would be rat= nxa'yjoirelyratrbi. Um, that's quite long, but not too long = in comparison to the English "carbon dioxide" equivalent.
=C2=A0
Valence numbers can co= me into play, too. I've seen these a lot with iron compounds. There are= lots of different systems for adding numbers to these element and compound= names: letters of various alphabets (alpha, beta; A/a, B/b; 1, 2), number = prefixes from various languages (mono-, di-, tri- vs. uni-, bi-).

No, we ain't putting Latin/Greek pre= fixes into Lojbanic lujvo!
=C2=A0

stevo

-- mu'o
=C2=A0

stevo

-- mu'o
=C2=A0

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On T= hu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:31 AM, la pluja <hr.muendler@gmail.com> wrote:
Something th= at has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclature of the chemi= cal elements.
I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quit= e early is that lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematical= ly.
So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named afte= r there position in the week.
Monday (or "is a monday") for ex= ample is pavdei (a construct of the rafsi of pa and djedi), literall= y "one-day".

On the other hand the current nomenclature of= chemical elements (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu)= is based on their trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever.

= Why is this? It's like calling monday mondei in lojba.

I= propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in their= nuclei, which defines the chemical element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wi= ki/Chemical_element).

An possible implementation would be to com= bine the rafsi of the numbers with the rafsi of ratni.

An examp= le:
=C2=A0pavrat
x1 is an a= tom of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 is= hydrogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2
=C2=A0
<= /b>
and/or

x1 is a quan= tity of/contains/is made of hydrogen

The latter definition= could of course also be made with gunma or something similar.

= Any thoughts on that?

(Another proposal which might be discussed is = if protons, neutrons and such should be called something equivalent to &quo= t;up-up-down" [proton]
instead of protoni or nurtoni = respectively. Then it would be necessary to define unambigious valsi for qu= antum states )

I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist= but this simply bugged me several days, so what do you think of it?<= font color=3D"#888888">

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1140152c5c3ee5053450f6fe--