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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v69si1687428wmv.0.2016.06.02.13.53.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of hr.muendler@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::236; Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id z87so6176611wmh.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.28.145.203 with SMTP id t194mr614653wmd.88.1464900795611; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (x590fdcb4.dyn.telefonica.de. [89.15.220.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q194sm42513858wme.18.2016.06.02.13.53.13 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 13:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [lojban] Nomenclature of the periodic table References: From: Niels Tron Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5ABEBA60-CB3E-48F7-BAC3-EA55DE9DBD11 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13E238) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 22:53:13 +0200 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: Hr.Muendler@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of hr.muendler@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hr.muendler@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --Apple-Mail-5ABEBA60-CB3E-48F7-BAC3-EA55DE9DBD11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So accordingly dioxide would be simply relyratrbi? I do really like this approach especially because it is strictly systemati= c AND intuitive. > Am 02.06.2016 um 21:53 schrieb Bruno Panasiewicz : >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 2 June 2016 at 19:36, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> I'm not a physicist (or a chemist) either, but one problem I foresee wit= h this approach is that the names of elements are frequently modified in th= e names of the compounds those elements comprise, for example, carbon dioxi= de (CO2). The prefix "di-" is also a number, so it would mean putting toget= her two or more number morphemes in such a way that they are still distinct= and understandable. Something like " Element6(*1)+Element8*2 ". >=20 > That's a thing I don't like either, because it'd both mix both of the way= s to use numbers in lujvo, AND be ambiguous about which one is which. Alter= natively, we could use type-3 fu'ivla, like ratrpa, ratnre etc., then emplo= y joi (which, surprisingly has rafsi -jol- & -joi-). For example, CO2 would= be ratnxa'yjoirelyratrbi. Um, that's quite long, but not too long in compa= rison to the English "carbon dioxide" equivalent. > =20 >> Valence numbers can come into play, too. I've seen these a lot with iron= compounds. There are lots of different systems for adding numbers to these= element and compound names: letters of various alphabets (alpha, beta; A/a= , B/b; 1, 2), number prefixes from various languages (mono-, di-, tri- vs. = uni-, bi-). >=20 > No, we ain't putting Latin/Greek prefixes into Lojbanic lujvo! > =20 >>=20 >> stevo >=20 > -- mu'o > =20 >>=20 >> stevo >=20 > -- mu'o > =20 >>=20 >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>=20 >>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:31 AM, la pluja wrote: >>> Something that has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclat= ure of the chemical elements. >>> I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quite early is th= at lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematically. >>> So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named after t= here position in the week. >>> Monday (or "is a monday") for example is pavdei (a construct of the raf= si of pa and djedi), literally "one-day". >>>=20 >>> On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements (https:= //jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on their trivia nam= es in latin/english or whatsoever. >>>=20 >>> Why is this? It's like calling monday mondei in lojba. >>>=20 >>> I propose the chemical elements are called by the number of protons in = their nuclei, which defines the chemical element (https://en.wikipedia.org/= wiki/Chemical_element). >>>=20 >>> An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi of the numbers= with the rafsi of ratni. >>>=20 >>> An example: >>> pavrat >>> x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 of isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1= is hydrogen of isotope number/atomic weight x2 >>> =20 >>> and/or >>>=20 >>> x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen >>>=20 >>> The latter definition could of course also be made with gunma or someth= ing similar. >>>=20 >>> Any thoughts on that? >>>=20 >>> (Another proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and = such should be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton] >>> instead of protoni or nurtoni respectively. Then it would be necessary = to define unambigious valsi for quantum states ) >>>=20 >>> I am neither a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply b= ugged me several days, so what do you think of it? >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Go= ogle Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/l= ojban/z8MlyYMdAT8/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --Apple-Mail-5ABEBA60-CB3E-48F7-BAC3-EA55DE9DBD11 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So accordingly dioxide would be si= mply relyrat= rbi?
 I do really like this approach especially because it is strictly= systematic AND intuitive.


Am 02.06= .2016 um 21:53 schrieb Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:

Valence numbers can come into play, too. I've seen these a lot with iron c= ompounds. There are lots of different systems for adding numbers to these e= lement and compound names: letters of various alphabets (alpha, beta; A/a, = B/b; 1, 2), number prefixes from various languages (mono-, di-, tri- vs. un= i-, bi-).


stevo

--= mu'o
 

stevo

-- mu'o
 

On T= hu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:31 AM, la pluja <hr.muendler@gmail.com> wrote:
Something th= at has bugged me the last few days is the current nomenclature of the chemi= cal elements.
I am relatively new to lojban but what I have learned quit= e early is that lojban tries to name every object/idea/concept systematical= ly.
So for an example the lojban names for days in a week are named afte= r there position in the week.
Monday (or "is a monday") for example is <= b>pavdei (a construct of the rafsi of pa and djedi), literally "one-day= ".

On the other hand the current nomenclature of chemical elements (https://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/dikni_selratni_cartu) is based on the= ir trivia names in latin/english or whatsoever.

Why is this? It's li= ke calling monday mondei in lojba.

I propose the chemical el= ements are called by the number of protons in their nuclei, which defines t= he chemical element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element).

An possible implementation would be to combine the rafsi of the nu= mbers with the rafsi of ratni.

An example:
 pavrat
x1 is an atom of atomic number 1 o= f isotope number/atomic weight x2; x1 is hydrogen of isotope num= ber/atomic weight x2
 
and/or

x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made= of hydrogen

The latter definition could of course also be= made with gunma or something similar.

Any thoughts on that?
(Another proposal which might be discussed is if protons, neutrons and= such should be called something equivalent to "up-up-down" [proton]
ins= tead of protoni or nurtoni respectively. Then it would be nec= essary to define unambigious valsi for quantum states )

I am neither= a physician nor an experienced lojbanist but this simply bugged me several= days, so what do you think of it?

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