Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::235;
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 12:08:49 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+CbTR=SbyAM+5GLPz0kO52KHL3Th=XgrYXQsu200WFmNA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban] sumti-raising cmavo thingy
To: mriste <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114180b2956c6705376d746f
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

--001a114180b2956c6705376d746f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi!

The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be useful to have a
sumti-raising infix cmavo?".
In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between the
raised sumti and the rest.

la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already discussed it over on his blog:
http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting

Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (of LAhE).
It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of a single word than two.
While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti and
an event,
{zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.

This brings us to metonyms.
Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;
they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something of that
object.
For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the office", even though
"office" really stands for "boss" (or something), "office" is used because
it has some relation to "boss".

If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage,
we'd get
{ lo briju cu minde }.
Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it's incorrect to say
that -- offices don't give orders.
Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event), {
lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X,
contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the
{jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which is
not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.

Explaining it with a simple relation might help:

 tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
zoi'e :  X  :    Y

It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.

~ mi'e la uakci mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--001a114180b2956c6705376d746f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi!<div><br></div><div>The other day, I was thinking, &quo=
t;wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a sumti-raising infix cmavo?&quot;.</di=
v><div>In other words, wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a cmavo that goes =
between the raised sumti and the rest.</div><div><br></div><div>la solpa=
9;i / la selpa&#39;i / la me zi&#39;o already discussed it over on his blog=
:</div><div><a href=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting=
" target=3D"_blank">http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting<br=
></a></div><div><br></div><div>Having said that, there is this fancy word, =
{zo&#39;ei} (of LAhE).</div><div>It&#39;s roughly equivalent to {zo&#39;e p=
e}, but more of a single word than two.</div><div>While {tu&#39;a}, {jai} a=
nd {kai&#39;a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti and an event,</div><d=
iv>{zo&#39;ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.</=
div><div><br></div><div>This brings us to metonyms.</div><div>Metonyms are =
somewhat related to metaphors;</div><div>they are the usage of an object in=
 a sentence instead of something of that object.</div><div>For example, in =
the sentence &quot;Orders came in from the office&quot;, even though &quot;=
office&quot; really stands for &quot;boss&quot; (or something), &quot;offic=
e&quot; is used because it has some relation to &quot;boss&quot;.</div><div=
><br></div><div>If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the me=
tonym usage, we&#39;d get</div><div>{ lo briju cu minde }.</div><div>Becaus=
e Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it&#39;s incorrect to say th=
at -- offices don&#39;t give orders.</div><div>Just like { mi cizra }, whic=
h needs a {jai} (because I&#39;m not an event), { lo briju cu minde } shoul=
d also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X, contrary to {jai}, would be =
in SE (because we don&#39;t need to use the {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).<b=
r></div><div>In order to fix the example, we&#39;d say {zo&#39;ei lo briju =
cu minde} (which is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Explaining it with a simple relation might help:</=
div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0tu&#39;a =
: jai : (kai&#39;a) ::</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"=
>zoi&#39;e : =C2=A0X =C2=A0: =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y</font></div><div><br></div><div=
><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">It&#39;s also worth considerin=
g the Y, because it could be useful.</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, =
helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica=
, sans-serif">~ mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;o</font></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--001a114180b2956c6705376d746f--