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From: Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:31:57 +0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] sumti-raising cmavo thingy
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On 12 July 2016 at 15:16, Jacob Errington <jake@mail.jerrington.me> wrote:

> .i coi ro do
>
> > On Jul 12, 2016, at 6:08 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event),
> { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X,
> contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the
> {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
> > In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which
> is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.
> >
> > Explaining it with a simple relation might help:
> >
> >  tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
> > zoi'e :  X  :    Y
> >
> > It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.
>
> Agreed. A {jai}-like cmavo to perform the action of {zo'ei} would be
> pretty cool.
>

It would, just like {jai}. I imagine Loglanists (and maybe Lojbanists of
the 80s) struggle with {da poi tu'a ke'a} and {lo ckaji be lo ka tu'a
ce'u}. Similarly, we're struggling with the lack of X, so I guess it's
worth considering it.


>
> First, I would like to point to {jai'a}[1] (in its own selma'o) which
> latro'a and I coined quite a while ago to promote arbitrary LAhE into
> selbri transformers. Being able to promote LAhE is cumbersome though, and I
> think that a {jai}-like {zo'ei} would be enough in practice.
>

I agree. {jai'a} seems to be a useful thing, but {jai'a zo'ei} would be too
much, taking its frequency into account. (That is, frequency of usage IF
{jai'a} was mainstreamed.)


>
> Second, I say "selbri transformer" because although SE can act as selbri
> transformers, they are overloaded to also operate on BAI (or more generally
> tags) and on connectives. That being said there is a tradeoff to be made in
> deciding whether the new cmavo should be in SE or in a new selma'o.
> Specifically, by placing it in SE without coming up with (ideally useful)
> semantics about its interactions with tags and connectives opens the door
> to new kinds of nonsense. On the other hand, everybody understands SE and
> adding selma'o should be done lightly.
>

That's a big issue, because everyone'd be split over whether to have it in
SE. I think it's time to implement something like multiple selma'o for a
word.

As for that, considering the {li} & {cu} merge (having {li} take over
{cu}'s functions to free a point in the small monosyllabary space), {li}
would be in a horrible situation -- would it be in LI? CU? something else?
It'd need to be in two selma'o *at once*: the number to sumti modifiers
(now LI) and the selbri starter (now CU).
I guess it's important to consider more-than-one-selma'o words that don't
create a horrible mess on the selma'o list.

Back to the main point: now I think that SE would be a better choice,
because assigning a meaning to {X BAI} isn't a big deal (perhaps it'd be
the same as {BAI zo'ei}).


>
> Finally, I don't know what {kai'a} means. Could someone add it to
> jbovlaste?
>

It's discussed in the blog post I linked to. selpa'i didn't add it to JVS
because the name was only for the sake of the article and not permanent.


>
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>

i mi'e kamyuakcykezykempavdzakai mu'o re'i jo'au bomzanturfa'i xi pa pi pa
xa


>
> [1] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/jai'a

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 12 July 2016 at 15:16, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jake@mail.jerrington.me" target=3D"_blank">jake@mail.jerrington.=
me</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">.i coi ro do<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; On Jul 12, 2016, at 6:08 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:c=
iuak.prog@gmail.com">ciuak.prog@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I&#39;m not an ev=
ent), { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X=
. X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don&#39;t need to use th=
e {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).<br>
&gt; In order to fix the example, we&#39;d say {zo&#39;ei lo briju cu minde=
} (which is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Explaining it with a simple relation might help:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 tu&#39;a : jai : (kai&#39;a) ::<br>
&gt; zoi&#39;e :=C2=A0 X=C2=A0 :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Y<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It&#39;s also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.<br>
<br>
</span>Agreed. A {jai}-like cmavo to perform the action of {zo&#39;ei} woul=
d be pretty cool.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It would, just like {=
jai}. I imagine Loglanists (and maybe Lojbanists of the 80s) struggle with =
{da poi tu&#39;a ke&#39;a} and {lo ckaji be lo ka tu&#39;a ce&#39;u}. Simil=
arly, we&#39;re struggling with the lack of X, so I guess it&#39;s worth co=
nsidering it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
First, I would like to point to {jai&#39;a}[1] (in its own selma&#39;o) whi=
ch latro&#39;a and I coined quite a while ago to promote arbitrary LAhE int=
o selbri transformers. Being able to promote LAhE is cumbersome though, and=
 I think that a {jai}-like {zo&#39;ei} would be enough in practice.<br></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree. {jai&#39;a} seems to be a useful thin=
g, but {jai&#39;a zo&#39;ei} would be too much, taking its frequency into a=
ccount. (That is, frequency of usage IF {jai&#39;a} was mainstreamed.)</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Second, I say &quot;selbri transformer&quot; because although SE can act as=
 selbri transformers, they are overloaded to also operate on BAI (or more g=
enerally tags) and on connectives. That being said there is a tradeoff to b=
e made in deciding whether the new cmavo should be in SE or in a new selma&=
#39;o. Specifically, by placing it in SE without coming up with (ideally us=
eful) semantics about its interactions with tags and connectives opens the =
door to new kinds of nonsense. On the other hand, everybody understands SE =
and adding selma&#39;o should be done lightly.<br></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>That&#39;s a big issue, because everyone&#39;d be split over whethe=
r to have it in SE. I think it&#39;s time to implement something like multi=
ple selma&#39;o for a word.</div><div><br></div><div>As for that, consideri=
ng the {li} &amp; {cu} merge (having {li} take over {cu}&#39;s functions to=
 free a point in the small monosyllabary space), {li} would be in a horribl=
e situation -- would it be in LI? CU? something else? It&#39;d need to be i=
n two selma&#39;o *at once*: the number to sumti modifiers (now LI) and the=
 selbri starter (now CU).</div><div>I guess it&#39;s important to consider =
more-than-one-selma&#39;o words that don&#39;t create a horrible mess on th=
e selma&#39;o list.</div><div><br></div><div>Back to the main point: now I =
think that SE would be a better choice, because assigning a meaning to {X B=
AI} isn&#39;t a big deal (perhaps it&#39;d be the same as {BAI zo&#39;ei}).=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Finally, I don&#39;t know what {kai&#39;a} means. Could someone add it to j=
bovlaste?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s discussed in the blo=
g post I linked to. selpa&#39;i didn&#39;t add it to JVS because the name w=
as only for the sake of the article and not permanent.</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>i mi&#39;=
e kamyuakcykezykempavdzakai mu&#39;o re&#39;i jo&#39;au bomzanturfa&#39;i x=
i pa pi pa xa</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/jai&#39;a" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/jai&#39;a</a></blockq=
uote></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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