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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 09:17:58 +0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] sumti-raising cmavo thingy
From: Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
To: mriste <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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ni'o la lojbab cu babzba di'e se pi'o ke ju'o lo ri skami:
>
> On 7/12/2016 6:08 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be useful to have a
>> sumti-raising infix cmavo?".
>> In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between
>> the raised sumti and the rest.
>>
>> la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already discussed it over on his
blog:
>> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting
>>
>> Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (of LAhE).
>> It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of a single word than two.
>> While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti
>> and an event,
>> {zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.
>>
>> This brings us to metonyms.
>> Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;
>> they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something of
>> that object.
>> For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the office", even
>> though "office" really stands for "boss" (or something), "office" is
>> used because it has some relation to "boss".
>>
>> If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage,
>> we'd get
>> { lo briju cu minde }.
>> Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it's incorrect to
>> say that -- offices don't give orders.
>> Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event),
>> { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X.
>> X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the
>> {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
>> In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which
>> is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.
>>
>> Explaining it with a simple relation might help:
>>
>>  tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
>> zoi'e :  X  :    Y
>>
>> It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.
>>
>> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o
>
>
> Back in the 90s, when tu'e and jai were added to the language, Nick
Nicholas frequently talked about metonymy, and he may have discussed this
issue.  If you look in the Lojban List archives for "metonymy" it might be
easy to find, since that word hasn't popped up too often outside Nick's
discussions.

Ah, that means I'm not the first one thinking about this issue. I couldn't
find the archives. Do you know where they are? I'd like to look at those
discussions. (Or is the discussion too old to have been archived?)

> lojbab

~ mi'e la pe'ukci mu'o

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<p dir=3D"ltr">ni&#39;o la lojbab cu babzba di&#39;e se pi&#39;o ke ju&#39;=
o lo ri skami:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 7/12/2016 6:08 AM, Bruno Panasiewicz wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi!<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The other day, I was thinking, &quot;wouldn&#39;t it be useful to =
have a<br>
&gt;&gt; sumti-raising infix cmavo?&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt; In other words, wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a cmavo that goe=
s between<br>
&gt;&gt; the raised sumti and the rest.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; la solpa&#39;i / la selpa&#39;i / la me zi&#39;o already discussed=
 it over on his blog:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting">h=
ttp://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo&#39;ei} (of LAhE).=
<br>
&gt;&gt; It&#39;s roughly equivalent to {zo&#39;e pe}, but more of a single=
 word than two.<br>
&gt;&gt; While {tu&#39;a}, {jai} and {kai&#39;a} (from the blog post) relat=
e to a sumti<br>
&gt;&gt; and an event,<br>
&gt;&gt; {zo&#39;ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to=
 it.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This brings us to metonyms.<br>
&gt;&gt; Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;<br>
&gt;&gt; they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something=
 of<br>
&gt;&gt; that object.<br>
&gt;&gt; For example, in the sentence &quot;Orders came in from the office&=
quot;, even<br>
&gt;&gt; though &quot;office&quot; really stands for &quot;boss&quot; (or s=
omething), &quot;office&quot; is<br>
&gt;&gt; used because it has some relation to &quot;boss&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym u=
sage,<br>
&gt;&gt; we&#39;d get<br>
&gt;&gt; { lo briju cu minde }.<br>
&gt;&gt; Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it&#39;s inco=
rrect to<br>
&gt;&gt; say that -- offices don&#39;t give orders.<br>
&gt;&gt; Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I&#39;m not a=
n event),<br>
&gt;&gt; { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo=
, X.<br>
&gt;&gt; X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don&#39;t need to=
 use the<br>
&gt;&gt; {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).<br>
&gt;&gt; In order to fix the example, we&#39;d say {zo&#39;ei lo briju cu m=
inde} (which<br>
&gt;&gt; is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Explaining it with a simple relation might help:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0tu&#39;a : jai : (kai&#39;a) ::<br>
&gt;&gt; zoi&#39;e :=C2=A0 X=C2=A0 :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Y<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It&#39;s also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; ~ mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;o<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Back in the 90s, when tu&#39;e and jai were added to the language, Nic=
k Nicholas frequently talked about metonymy, and he may have discussed this=
 issue.=C2=A0 If you look in the Lojban List archives for &quot;metonymy&qu=
ot; it might be easy to find, since that word hasn&#39;t popped up too ofte=
n outside Nick&#39;s discussions.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Ah, that means I&#39;m not the first one thinking about this=
 issue. I couldn&#39;t find the archives. Do you know where they are? I&#39=
;d like to look at those discussions. (Or is the discussion too old to have=
 been archived?)</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; lojbab</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">~ mi&#39;e la pe&#39;ukci mu&#39;o</p>

<p></p>

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